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Discussion in 'Politicants' started by TennTradition, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    To be clear, I think all of them were good counterarguments. Shapiro's "call out" was nonsensical. His argument boils down to sharia law. That a religious entity should be able to do whatever they want, regardless of the law of the state. This was never the case. He is mistaken. There is no secret strategy.
     
  2. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    There are better books to read, that teach these concepts, better. Pete the Cat's Three Bite Rule, teaching trying new things. Gregory the Terrible Eater is another example.

    He doesn't like him, because he keeps asking him, over and over again. Even though being turned down. Nobody would like that. It wouldn't even take a lot of interactions to form that opinion, despite your seeming belief otherwise .

    It is time to start looking at things in the 60s retiring, workers, beliefs, icons and, yes, books. There are newer things doing it better, and nobody suffers from not having the old thing.
     
  3. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Sharia law? What the hell are you talking about? Your claims, here, are VERY different from Norris's original response. Norris chalked it all up to fearmongering and basically said "that* will never happen."

    You're basically saying here that it should happen.

    Shapiro's argument is that the US Constitution protects individual citizen's freedom to exercise their religion. That freedom cannot and should not be taken away unless that religion infringes on the freedoms of others.

    Believing that homosexuality is a sin/morally wrong is not "infringing" on anyone's rights. Various religious institutions teach that adultery and polygamy are sins/morally wrong as well, and no one claims these institutions are discriminating against adulterers or polygamists.

    Refusing to perform homosexual marriages in a religious setting is not "infringing" on anyone's rights either. There are still numerous other setting in which a homosexual couple can get married. The religious institution is not preventing them from exercising that right.

    Putting in place laws that would suggest that either of those things is "infringing" on people's rights would be a direct attack on religious freedom and completely unacceptable.

    Nothing you've said has disproved Shapiro's assertion that the last step in this process is the shutting down of religious institutions. You've just attempted to make an argument that he wants religious entities to be able to do whatever they want. That's a disingenuous reading of his take.

    *that, meaning churches/religious schools being shut down for teaching that homosexuality is a sin, refusing to perform homosexual weddings, refusing to teach certain things about transgender folks, etc.
     
  4. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    if an employer breaks the law, they break the law. they can believe what they want. teach what they want. shapiro is making a prediction with no time frame, that the 1st amendment goes away and uses faulty logic to create the illusion of a slippery slope. talk past me and tell me what I "really mean," just like ben shapiro would. it isn't happening. he's selling you a crisis to keep your attention.
     
  5. NorrisAlan

    NorrisAlan Founder of the Mike Honcho Fan Club

    1) This rule change in the IRS happened in 1970, the middle of Nixon's first term and the IRS falls under the jurisdiction of the Executive Branch. So calling this a "dem" thing is foolish. The reason I mention six years is that they fought against this ruling and they lost, it didn't just happen.
    2) An 8-0 SCOTUS ruling on anything is pretty damning, though, you have to admit. Those don't happen unless the ruling is so obvious and clear that there is literally ZERO dissention from either "side" of the political spectrum. As for the specificity, I assumed this was a perceived attack on churches proper, not just schools. And it is not.
    3) I have no idea what O'Rourke is doing these days, to be honest, and I will grant you the point he is still important, I just don't know about it. As for the crowd, crowds will cheer at anything. Mob psychology is a real thing and in those kinds of environments, the cult head can say "Scorf de dorf!" and someone will cheer or laugh or have a good time with it. I wouldn't read too much into that.
    4) I will have to do some research. I don't immediately recall what businesses have been affected and how.

    My main point really his this: the Bob Jones University thing happened almost 50 years ago, and that was the starting point of his whole argument. And it is silly, because it has been 50 years and I don't see the attacks happening more or people coming into my home trying to tell me that "gay is okay and if you don't tell your kids that we are taking them away" or "If you don't allow gay marriages in your church, we are taking away your tax exemption and shutting you down!"

    Thus I call it fearmongering, which is all it is. He has no proof, just "what ifs". He keeps calling "shutting the school down" and that is NOT what happened. They just took away their tax exemption, which obviously didn't put them out of business as they are still operating. This is no different than "let the blacks vote and they are going to turn this country into a jungle!" or "let women play sports and you are going to emasculate the country and turn us into [ussies pay]!" or whatever the fear of the day is, from rock music to video games.
     
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  6. CardinalVol

    CardinalVol Uncultured, non-diverse mod

    I'm not getting into the details of all of this debate, but this is coming (at least the 501c3 part). It won't while conservatives have a 6-3 advantage on SCOTUS, but when it flips, it's coming.

    Wait and see.
     
    Indy likes this.
  7. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Probably just outlaw all church.
     
  8. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    No putting hands together in prayer, only for yoga namastes.

    I can't believe this grift has worked for decades. I used to be told this crap when I was a kid, too. That gubbermint is gonna outlaw Christianity any day now. Any day... It's coming... Any... day... Right up there with claiming the massive family bible Biden swore in on was not a bible at all.
     
  9. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    That's because, somehow (read: country folk) have tied religion to politics.

    "Conservative values."

    That phrase is all you need to unpack to understand why Republicans demonize the left, to the point of wanting to murder people.
     
  10. NorrisAlan

    NorrisAlan Founder of the Mike Honcho Fan Club

    This is the first thought I had on this, as well. We were told stories over and over about the martyrs in early Christian churches and that we needed to be ready to do the same thing.

    It was 1700 years ago.

    The Church has been the dominate force in Western culture for the rest of that time. Yet they still see themselves as martyrs. Now, Shapiro is Jewish, and at least he has something a lot closer than Nero to fall back on. He only has to look 80 years ago.
     
  11. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Christians are the most persecuted people on the planet. Just ask them.
     
  12. NorrisAlan

    NorrisAlan Founder of the Mike Honcho Fan Club

    I really don't want to turn this into a Christian bashing thing, as I used to be one and I understand where they are coming from. If you truly believe in the book of Revelations (damn those Council members who pushed this book to be included. It almost wasn't), then you are expecting some serious shit to come down the pipe, and it is always "right around the corner."

    Yet the reality is far different. I'll just say this, I will believe all this doom and gloom when it happens. Way too many Christians in power to let this happen. Hell, even the most non-Christian President we have ever had still courted the Christian Right and even loved being filmed holding up a Bible.
     
  13. CardinalVol

    CardinalVol Uncultured, non-diverse mod

    Nah, probably innocent families in the middle east by military that DGAF who they kill.
     
  14. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    I dont know any Republicans who want to murder people, but I do know a couple who wore trump stuff and had to defend themselves due to what they were wearing and their political lean. If you are going to talk about bullshit people do, talk about all of it, not just what you prefer.
     
  15. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    I see what you did there, and see your point. but Christianity is the most popular belief here on the left and right. and religious freedom is high on the list of american values, as part of free thought and expression. Shapiro is mixing religion and business to shield business practices as being inherently of a faith.

    if one's faith or religion were tied to tax exempt status and being able to subject employees to a different set of rules, it isn't much of a faith. Christianity and Judaism endured specific religious taxes for over a thousand years in various places and survived. that was persecution. being subject to the same taxes everyone, hypothetically, would not be. what will come to a head will be the formation of all kinds of entities claiming to be religious for that benefit.
     
  16. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    I should say "is" persecution, christianity and Judaism is still taxed differently in many parts of the Islamic world.
     
  17. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Exactly how did they defend themselves?

    Run over to Voltalk or whatever that forum is, and look at their political threads.

    You might not "know" these people. But you've spoken to them. SavageOrangeJug was over here, til he got banned. For racism.
     
  18. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    If I go into shark infested water and get bitten. I shouldn't haven gone into shark infested water.
     
  19. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    I think that last sentence is a good one, for all of us including you. I think we all know there is a bunch of bs going on across the board, and should keep it in mind.
     
  20. CardinalVol

    CardinalVol Uncultured, non-diverse mod

    Sucks when said sharks are forced upon you and you are told they are there to help you too.
     

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