The NBA Thread.

Discussion in 'Sports' started by GahLee, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    It was limited to the finals because that's what Tenny pointed to, specifically, with his "6-0, never needed a game 7" comments. I think I've said that at least 2 or 3 times. I intended to move on to a broader view of the playoffs as a whole after discussion of this piece, which has not occurred yet.

    Whether you agree with it or not, both Draymond and Iguodala have resumes that justify significant consideration for the HoF. Both are 3x champions. One has a finals MVP. They both have all defensive team appearances, all star team appearances, and one was defensive POTY. They have quite a bit backing them up over some, if not all of the guys you listed. And even then, I made it very clear that in my math, I only counted 1 of the 2 each time, even though both of them could end up in the HoF. I also made it clear that I took both Kemp and Marion, even though neither is currently in. Even if you remove ALL of them from the discussion, LeBron is still coming in at 2.88 HoF's per opponent, while Jordan is at 1.67.

    So does it really change anything? Or can we all agree that out of the 14 finals opponents the two players played against, at a MINIMUM, LeBron's take the top 6 spots, and maybe even the top 8? And that, as a result, pointing to Jordan's finals record and never needing a game 7 is kinda disingenuous?

    As for their teams, sure, I think that's a fair point to consider. Let's look at that:

    Jordan:

    1. MJ, Pippen
    2. MJ, Pippen
    3. MJ, Pippen
    4. MJ, Pippen, Rodman
    5. MJ, Pippen, Rodman
    6. MJ, Pippen, Rodman

    Average: 2.5

    1. LBJ, Bosh, Wade
    2. LBJ, Bosh, Wade
    3. LBJ, Bosh, Wade, Allen
    4. LBJ, Bosh, Wade, Allen
    5. LBJ (Omitting Kyrie and Love - both hurt)
    6. LBJ, Kyrie, Love
    7. LBJ, Kyrie, Love
    8. LBJ, Love

    Average: 2.88

    So LeBron has averaged .33 more HoF's on his finals teams. And if you compare that to the teams they were playing, MJ had more HoF's than his opponents 5 out of 6 series, while LeBron had more HoF's than his opponents once (if you don't count Shawn Marion). You could also nitpick and point out the age/career stage of Ray Allen, if you'd like, as well as the '91 Lakers being a shell of the Showtime Lakers. But I don't even think that's necessary. Toni Kukoc is also an interesting case as well, since some people believe he should be in based on a combination of his NBA play and his international play with Croatia. But, again, I don't think it's necessary to include him to make the point I'm making.
     
  2. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    They recorded it. Have Card get one of his FBI peeps to track it down and find out.
     
  3. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Recorded you and Sab?
     
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  4. justingroves

    justingroves supermod

    Hahaha
     
  5. Unimane

    Unimane Kill "The Caucasian"

    Why include the Finals in which LeBron didn't win? Isn't the point he had the HoF players when he won?

    Towards who is an HoF player, Tom Chambers, for one, is a four time NBA All-Star, 2 time 2nd team All-NBA and even one All-Star game MVP. He's ahead of Iguodala and Green has no business anywhere near the Hall. He's a mediocre player who does jack shit without Curry, Durant and Thompson around to help him. Barkley is right.

    Otherwise, Allen saved a title for James and he was no more near the end of his career than was Rodman.

    You still opine as if the Finals is the be all, end all by itself. If you want to consider the players they beat on their road to the title, it has to include the fact Jordan's road had more potential bumps in them because the East was significantly tougher in the 90s than James faced in the 2010s.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  6. CardinalVol

    CardinalVol Uncultured, non-diverse mod

    Wait, Indy screwed up an FBI sting operation on sab and still let sab finger his butthole?
     
  7. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Because we are talking about the opponents he played in the finals and how nearly all of them, including ones he beat and ones he lost to, were better than the teams MJ played in the finals. The point is that if MJ had played a team like GS, or maybe even the Spurs, he likely loses too. But he never had to.

    I’m not arguing that guy doesn’t belong in the HoF. I think you’re selling Iggy and Draymond a bit short. They have accolades and are still playing.

    Okay, good, I’m glad you mentioned Ray Allen “saving” LeBron. Because it’s a ridiculous notion. LeBron went for 32-10-11 that game. The Heat went into the 4th quarter down 10. LeBron scored or assisted on 16 straight points to cut a 12 point deficit to a tie game. He scored or assisted on 24 of the Heat’s 29 points leading up to Allen’s shot, and Wade and Bosh had a combined 0 baskets and 2 points in that 4th quarter. And LeBron ALSO forced an air ball on the potential game winning shot from Tony Parker after Allen hit his shot. So yeah, Allen hit one shot, but LeBron won that game.

    And you can’t compare Rodman’s production to Allen’s at that point in their careers. Allen had fallen off substantially from a production standpoint, while Rodman was still nba All-defensive team in ‘96 and the rebound champion all 3 years. Not similar at all.

    I’ll do the rest of the playoffs tomorrow.
     
  8. Unimane

    Unimane Kill "The Caucasian"

    Allen doesn't hit that shot, he doesn't win that title. And, Rodman played a grand total of 35 games after that 98 season. He was done.

    The point about the playoffs continues to be Jordan had a tougher overall run than James.


    Otherwise, Iguodola is a nice role player on very good teams. Draymond is overrated crap who demonstrated his lack of credentials this year when he had no cover. He plays for the Suns or Timberwolves his whole career and he gets zero accolades.
     
  9. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    Igoudola and Draymond are HOF players? Goodness gracious NBA2k ruined people
     
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  10. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    You’re just on fire.

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...ely-hall-fame-player-every-current-nba-roster

     
  11. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    That can be said for almost any shot in any close game. Bottom line is that Bron essentially carried his team to the finish line, even if he needed one of them to hit a three to help get them over it.

    Let’s look at the playoffs tomorrow.

    Iggy is a top of the line defender and a finals MVP. There are only 2 finals MVP’s who are eligible for the Hall but not in it. And let’s be honest, GS doesn’t become what they became without Iggy. I think he ends up in.

    I’m less confident about Green, but more confident than you are. Of course he struggled this year. He’s not a scorer, and his team lost its top 3 scoring threats to free agency and injury. He was always going to struggle. His road to the Hall is based on his defense (which has always been solid and was temporarily elite) and his role as the glue guy on multiple title teams. Tons of people have said Draymond gave those GSW teams their edge. Also, it’s hilarious to me how people will talk down so savagely about Draymond Green, but everyone is/was so sure that GS would have wrapped it up if not for Green’s suspension.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  12. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    12 ppg/5 reb players dont deserve HOF. If they do, build another hall and fill it up
     
  13. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Oh, so now stats are important? What happened to all your focus on intangibles like hustling, leadership, killer instinct, not loafing, will to win, etc?

    Do you see it and just refuse to admit it, or are you just completely blind to the fact that, when evaluating a player as an all time great, you change what “matters” based on what best proves your stance?

    You say Iggy and Draymond don’t belong in the Hall. Cool. I’ve more than proven that some people disagree with you and that’s with time left to play. If you wanna list two stats and leave out championships and other accolades, as well as what the two players obviously meant to multiple championship teams, that’s your prerogative.
     
  14. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    Your drama queen gotcha bullshit is tired. I dont care if you think Green and iggy are HOF.
    I dont think they are. i wouldnt take those 2 over a single player in the HOF.
     
  15. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    I’d get tired of someone pointing out how full of shit I was every time I posted too. But you keep moving the goal posts and making stupid, generalized claims - like this one about “a single player in the HoF.”

    Should we make a list of the players currently in the Hall who don’t deserve to be there and accomplished less than these two?
     
  16. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    Its not moving the goalposts when i post twice that i think they are role players and not hof players. Not sure how much more clear i can be, but evidently you require more
     
  17. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    And when a clown who willingly gets in a car with a pedo repeatedly calls me an idiot over opinions on Jordan, lebron and iggy, im good with it.
    Plus indy, you lie too much. Fbi my ass. You couldnt deduce getting in the car was a bad idea. And you said you were done pages ago too. Stick with truths.
     
  18. JohnnyQuickkick

    JohnnyQuickkick Calcio correspondent

    Green and Igoudala getting in sets a pretty low bar for the HoF if you ask me
     
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  19. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    You are a goalpost moving idiot
     
  20. JohnnyQuickkick

    JohnnyQuickkick Calcio correspondent

    It seems to me you could come up with about a million guys who were “important role players on championship teams”. I don’t see that as a HoF qualification
     

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