OWH Memorial Undead Topic

Discussion in 'The Thunderdome' started by O+W=H., Sep 26, 2011.

  1. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    What don't you think is healthy about it, and what don't you think is good for the environment?

    You think the entire thing is a ploy to end small producers? Doesn't that strike you as extremely paranoid?
     
  2. emainvol

    emainvol Administrator

    It’s objectively better for the environment than beef.

    I don’t think there are a lot of health benefits, but there’s really no argument on the environmental question

    Edit: I guess I should walk that back a little as the only studies into environmental effects have been commissioned by the companies themselves. So maybe not quite “objectively” better, but I’m having a hard time imagining that they can possibly be worse
     
  3. Volst53

    Volst53 Super Moderator

    I think fresh meat from healthy animals is the healthiest foods that a person can eat. I’ve seen the difference since going animal heavy has made in my families and my life.

    I’m not saying plants don’t have a place in a healthy diet but it isn’t the cornerstone that it’s made out to be. Especially grains and vegetable seed oils.


    most of the ingredients for the fake meats are produced by monoculture that’s destructive and horrible for the environment and soil due to tillage, dependence on petroleum based herbicides and fertilizer. You actually end of killing more animals and organisms than you would raising animals.

    Large ruminate animals on the land is a healthy and needed part of building soil and having good soil health. We already have the practices to make beef a carbon sequestering machine through building healthy soil, and feeding the soil microbiome that turns dirt into fertile healthy soil.

    I don’t think it is that paranoid as it’s the only major farm animal that isn’t controlled by the handful of mega food corporations.

    most of all the food made in America comes from a handful of large corporations and is extremely centralized and is a huge threat.

    one of the strongest correlations of a population being hit hardest by COVID-19 was looking at food transport distances on average. The farther the food traveled to the consumers. the worst the outcomes for the populations.
     
  4. Volst53

    Volst53 Super Moderator

    there’s a huge argument to be had over mono crop ag vs healthy regenerative agriculture and animals on the land have to be a part of that due to how nature works.


    Look at all of the healthiest and rich soils that we’ve known. The Midwest bread basket was built on native prairies with a ton of different plants with millions of ruminate animals running on them building the soil before we got here.

    The good thing with electric fence technology we can easily mimic the predatory effect and keep them densely mobbed together and moving to have the biggest impact for soil health
     
  5. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Haven't you been doing meat heavy for like... a few months? Seems a bit early to make calls for all of humanity based on a couple months mornings, and very little blood work.

    None of those things are required. That they may be done does not make them required. I find it interesting that you, who promote sustainable farming, somehow cannot see how fake meats cannot be produced using the same means. It seems like a heavily biased view.

    We can have large animals on land, without the need to then use them for food. So that point is also lacking, as it isn't one or the other.

    How is it a threat? What outcomes? Which populations?
     
  6. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck


    I would like to hear the argument that says we can't have animals on land unless we plan to eat them.
     
  7. Volst53

    Volst53 Super Moderator

    Yeah mine has been about 5 months now and I’m not saying it would be the blueprint for everyone.

    I just think it truly opened my eyes to how broken the USDA food pyramid is and so much of our misconceptions on diet. There’s a lot of doctors that have way more experience on this than my anecdotal. Dr. Paul Mason is one of my favorites and is easy to find on YouTube.

    I’m not saying that plant based production isn’t impossible with better practices and I want them. I think Gabe Brown is probably the best in America pushing the idea system of no till with cover crops.
     
  8. Volst53

    Volst53 Super Moderator

    because I don’t want to eat a patty of grains and pea protein mixed with vegetable oil.

    When I can have a beautiful natural product that got to live a healthy amazing life getting a fresh paddock of pasture every day and just had one bad day.

    I’m not saying the fake meats shouldn’t exist or be outlawed, but I also don’t think the upcoming restrictions on beef shouldn’t happen either
     
  9. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    There are far more doctors speaking on the dangers, or at the very least, being high cautious of high protein based diets, than speaking to the benefit. And while more doesn't mean better or right, the minority isn't often the correct group, despite them using the few times they were as their reasoning for why they are now.

    No till with cover crops is a great thing. But it is still an antique farming method. How long it remains an antique method, who knows. But soilless farming is here. It's sustainable. You can wrap the farm in a bubble and recycle the water. It'll be what we use when we go to Mars, in the next two or three decades. It's the future. And it will be adopted here, before it becomes big there. Or it it'll be big there, and we'll adopt it here.

    Land is expensive. The equipment used to farm land is expensive, and it often doesn't come with the right to repair. And when that equipments needs to be changed over to electric, soilless and other forms of vertical farming may become more lucrative, and on the table.
     
  10. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    This is a middle product. Additive manufacturing (think 3D printing) of proteins, from base material, is in its infancy. But it isn't science fiction.

    It is entirely possible that we have, in our lifetime, an additive manufactured steak that is impossible to tell the difference from, from a cut of meat that took a lot of time and money and energy to create.
     
  11. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    How many acres does the average head of cattle require in a temperate, continental climate?
     
  12. emainvol

    emainvol Administrator

    You talking replicators here?
     
  13. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    According to the Virginia Tech people, it is about 3 total acres per cow/calf unit in Virginia (about half an acre for hay production in addition to 2.5 acres for grazing). Let' say you can get about 620 lbs of meat per cow. And let's say Everybody on Earth ate 0.5 lb of meat a day. This is being super generous, as the average American already eats more than that and if we were leaning into free range beef that number would certainly more than double.

    .5 lbs x 364.25 days = 182.125 lbs a year (again, super generous, almost everyone on this forum probably eats that much and more, probably totaled with pork and lamb we are north of 250 lbs each).

    182.125 lbs / 620 lbs = .294 or 29.4% of a cow.

    29.4% of 3 acres is .881 acres.

    .881 acres x 7,863,450,000 people = 6,927,699,450 acres needed of Virginia-quality grazing and hay production land. With about 70,000 more acres needed every day.

    The Earth is 123,000,000,000 or so acres, with about 37,000,000,000 or so acres being land.

    Approximately 33% of those 37,000,000,000 acres of dry land is desert.

    Approximately 24% of those 37,000,000,000 acres are mountainous.

    Approximately 3% of those 37,000,000,000 acres are urban.

    Approximately 37% of the 37,000,000,000 acres is already classified as farm or grazeland, with any sort of monocropping producing far more food than would be by grazeland due to the laws of physics and the 10% rule. So any replacement by additional graze land at the expense of existing agriculture of any kind would be a net reduction in total yield of food. I.e., you aren't going to be growing less than 705,000 calories out of 3 acres of land (1,137 calories per lb of beef). At a yield of 32,000 lbs of celery per acre and 64 calories per lb, that's 6,144,000 miserable calories of celery, almost 9 times as many. Now, stop and think... Remember that 10% rule? It isn't magic, I deliberately chose the most favorable comparison I could, and there it is. 90/10. Because a cow MUST use energy to survive, there is some finite amount of energy coming in from the sun to the plants, and here we are with less (90% less!) per level of the food chain. You cannot replace existing agriculture with grazing and end up with more food.

    What is left is 3% of habitable land, or 1,110,000,000 acres, which is surely already accounted for as infrastructure/extraction, roads, or residential. And we didn't figure in tundra/taiga. There is no spare habitable 7 billion acres on Earth. The world can not live that lifestyle. Not because Al Gore said so, but because the math and science doesn't work. You can feed your family that way because you are lucky enough to be born in the time and place you have been born. If everyone in the world did that or tried to, chaos, starvation, and war would follow. It is why the growing red meat appetite and affluence of China is alarming.


    I took today off work. So.
     
  14. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Not that advanced, but, yea, conceptually.
     
  15. CardinalVol

    CardinalVol Uncultured, non-diverse mod

    All I got out of this was nuke China.
     
  16. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Or we could keep working on the technology Float describes. Less radioactive fallout and cancer that way.
     
  17. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Because you were so upset by the numbers?
     
  18. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    I was originally scheduled to get vaccinated 2.5 hours away today, and just kept the day off even after finding a closer appt.
     
  19. CardinalVol

    CardinalVol Uncultured, non-diverse mod

  20. IP

    IP Super Moderator

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