Amani Hansberry - 2023 Hoops Recruit to visit Visit w/ UT

Paul Pierce has a title and a Finals MVP over both English and Richmond (unless you want to count Richmond's title with the Lakers during his final season when he basically didn't play). He also has more all star appearances than both of them. A better comparison would probably be Jimmy Butler or Paul George, but even they have 4-5 all-defensive teams to point to, and neither of them likely makes the top 10 list of the LeBron era.

If Hakeem makes your list, does Kobe get to make mine? Are we trying to make an actual comparison, or are you going to try to pretend MJ ever had to go through Hakeem in the playoffs?

It's similarly weak to point out Bird, as Jordan never beat him, as well as Thomas, who was old (along with his team) by the time Jordan beat him (after getting stomped, repeatedly, when they were in their prime).

Pointing to Magic isn't quite as weak as Bird and Thomas, but I don't think anyone would argue that MJ took him down when he was at his peak.

Stockton, Malone, Ewing, and Chuck are all legit guys to point to, but they're not on the same level as Duncan and won't be on the same level as guys like Steph and Durant when all is said and done. They fall into the same level as guys like Garnett and Dirk.

And we haven't even gotten to guys like Kawhi, Giannis, Luka, Harden, CP3, etc. Yeah, I'll say it again. 25 years from now, the top 10 players of LeBron's era will be considered far better than the top 10 of MJ's. They're already better now, today, and most (I'd probably revise "most" to "half") of their careers aren't over.

 

Better athletes due to various reasons. Better at the game of basketball, no. Offense opens up when carrying the ball and taking 3 or 4 steps around 2 or 3 moving picks is allowed. What offensive player from the 80s and early 90s wouldnt have bigger stats. You also can't touch anybody on defense. Padded stats doesn't mean better ball players. Neither does staring at stat sheets to talk about games and skill levels

 

You want to talk about the game of basketball? Some of the best basketball teams of the 80's and 90's didn't have anybody who could [uck fay]ing shoot. Don't talk to me about better at the game of basketball.

Again, give me your top 10 of Jordan's era and let's see how they stack up against the top 10 of LeBron's. You can pick whether or not LeBron/Jordan had to have beaten them in the playoffs for it to count. LeBron has more guys at the very top and more guys total. And, again, half of his guys are still playing.

 

I don't buy that the game is worse. If anything it is somewhat better. But anyone who watched peak Jordan and watched peak Lebron knows who is better.

 

It's already been long established that ssmiff, like most people who relentlessly defend putting Jordan over LeBron, don't watch LeBron and hardly even watch basketball any more. Hell, we just had a guy admit on the last page that he doesn't watch anymore.

There are numerous people who watched both and pick LeBron. And the numbers will only grow as time goes on.

 

And, you're still full of shit with a heavy recency bias.

Your point was top ten players of the respective eras, so that includes anyone in the league, as far as I understand it. So, Hakeem counts, and he's better than any big man of this era. English and Richmond didn't win a title because they were solo stars running up against all-time great teams with multiple HOFers in the Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, etc. Pierce won when he got HOF players around him, but his quality is on their level and I guaran-damn-tee you he won't be significantly remembered in 25 years.

Thomas wasn't old when Jordan won, he was still 29. He retired later due to an Achilles injury, but he was still producing. Jordan scored 63 against the a Celtics team with 5 HOF players on it. I'm cool with including those guys. Jordan killed it against those teams, but had absolutely nothing to support him and no one has gotten a title without some reasonable assistance.

But, Kawhi? CP3? Luka? Harden? Get the [uck fay] out of here.

Hell, I don't even think Luka is a better Euro player than Drazen Petrovic. Curry is the best shooter I've seen, but I also wonder if he holds up in the 80s and 90s, especially with his drives to the basket. I'm not sure he's a more clutch shooter than Miller, either. But, some are better players now and some are better then. I'd take Duncan over Malone, but not as much as you suggest. I'd take Stockton over CPS, certainly Magic over him. I'd take Giannis over Ewing. And so on.

Your dumb ass slobbering and overrating of the most recent time period is simply a failure to understand perspective, thinking the guys who are big now will always be so forever. It's the same for every generation. In 25 years, the dudes you think will stand the test of time won't and you'll be left with about the same number of prolific stars as any other time (Although, I think the 2000s were particularly weak).

 

And, there are significantly more who watched both and pick Jordan. The numbers might grow for LeBron because the young generation who didn't see Jordan will think LeBron must be the best because of that's who they saw.

 

I haven't mentioned Jordan. I mentioned what is allowed offensively and defensively. Did you ever consider Indy that shooting is better due to the game changing and the rules allowing for more open shots?
And there is more to basketball skills than shooting from the logo and dunking. All that has done is make it tough to coach kids who think a pull up from 25 and no rebounder is a good shot.
Again, you mentioned MJ and lebron. I didn't. I mentioned there are better athletes today due to training, nutrition, tech advancements, etc. Better athletes doesn't mean better basketball players. That's proven every night the game is played at any level.

 

I also said name your rules. I think it's dumb to include Hakeem for MJ in the same way that it's dumb to include Kobe for LeBron, but if that's the route you want to go, by all means. Kobe > Hakeem.

I disagree with you, wholeheartedly. Hard to attribute his title solely to the HOF players around him when he has the Finals MVP to go along with it. Again, they're PG and Butler, neither of home sniffs LeBron's top 10.

Probably fair. The team was washed though. It's pretty much universally agreed upon that Jordan didn't beat the Pistons until they got old. I hold Thomas in VERY high regard, and if you want to include him, so be it. But Jordan overcoming Thomas wasn't similar to something like Bron overcoming the Warriors.

If you want to include the guy(s) that pushed Jordan's face in for a couple years when he first entered the league, then retired, then by all means, include them. I don't think it makes much sense, as Jordan never won a game against Bird in the playoffs, but you do you. There's a reason that Jordan supports like to loop the best guys from the Bird/Magic era into the Jordan era.

Uh, what? You give me guys like Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, and Reggie Miller but then complain about me mentioning Kawhi, CP3 and Harden, all of whom are still playing, and all of whom are already better than the 3 you mentioned? Care to explain this nonsense?

Wait, is this like, if you compared Petrovic's career to Luka's if it ended tomorrow? Surely you don't think Petrovic will have the better career when both are retired? If that's what you're saying, then holy shit, this conversation is a complete waste of time. If Luka can just maintain his current pace and win a couple titles, he will be top 10 all time, easily. But again, I don't really think I'd throw him into LeBron's "era." That would be sorta similar to throwing Bird into Jordan's.

I don't necessarily disagree about the clutch part, but Curry is a top 15 all time player, the best shooter of all time, and still has plenty of career left in him. Like, I get that you're a homer for the 80's/90's, and, yeah, they both shot/shoot a lot of three's... but talking about Steph and Reggie in the same sentence is kind of laughable.

Careful with that Duncan/Malone talk. You're getting close to arguing against your own point with Jordan's titles. Duncan is easily top 10. Malone is top 20, but the gap is wide. Like, 5 titles wide.

Magic certainly is the best player you can point to, even though he's not really from Jordan's era. You can take Stockton over CP3 all you want, but you're wrong now and will be wrong when CP3 retires. Isiah is your better argument, from a point guard perspective. Bron can point to Nash, as well, though.

The guys I'm mentioning, for the most part, have already cemented their places with games left to play. You complaining about Kawhi, CP3, and Harden, and uttering Reggie Miller's name in the same sentence as Steph Curry shows that you're not at all familiar with these guys' accomplishments.

Go ahead and make your list. I'll respond with mine. We can compare them, and even nitpick them, if you want.

 

You responded to posts discussing the LeBron era vs the Jordan era. Quit trying to pull an Indy.

 

I responded to your post talking about today's players being better basketball players and I disagree. There's a reason a lot of older fans don't watch much NBA anymore and it's because the product is video game no defense offense traveling all over the place bullshit

 

I do appreciate the Doncic is better because he didn’t die argument

 

I like Doncic and have seen him play a bit. I watch the Celtics to see what Grant has transformed himself into and Jrich.
Doncic is a great basketball player who also takes full advantage of things I mentioned before. Cant blame him. Personally I'm more jealous that I didn't get 3 or 4 extra steps when I had to play thr likes of Ronald Davis, Orien Watson and Elliot Perry btbtb in a Christmas tourney at a packed White Station gym. I coulda used them, and a dozen or so moving picks for me woulda been nice too. There was no crossover because it wasn't allowed. Impossible to get those dudes off me.

 

I'll reiterate what I've said previously about this discussion. It's subjective, so the criteria isn't universal and difficult to establish because there are different situations, considerations, and a host of other factors which could be, reputably, considered. So, there are no hard and fast rules (Despite your claim below which states the only argument I make for Jordan is titles, a falsehood.). I've also cut out a few arguments in favor of the most relevant, for the sake of sanity for the board, if there's any left.

Pierce had losing seasons 3 out of the 4 years prior to getting Allen and Garnett. English was a first ballot HOF and averaged more points than Pierce, including a killer '85 playoffs where averaged 30 and was giving it to the Showtime Lakers in the WCF before breaking his thumb, all without anyone near the talent of Allen and Garnett helping him. The comparison fits way more than you realize.

You mean the guy who referred to him as "God disguised as Michael Jordan" while Jordan averaged 44 a game that series? That's "pushed Jordan's face in"? No, that's a guy playing a, potentially, greatest team ever with zero help, scoring 63, and his team still losing. A one man LeBron team wins zero games, as well, against those Celtics teams.

You inferred those guys were well above the players from the 80s and 90s. They aren't. I'll adjust if you're making a different argument.

Petrovic died, dude. He was just ramping up. I like Doncic as a player, but, from what I saw, Drazen was every bit as good, though Doncic is young, of course. It's hard to relate how important Petrovic was to a generation of European players.

Miller would have a ton more threes if he played in this era. A ton. Curry is a better shooter, agreed, but he'd still be chasing Miller's record if Reggie played in this era (He'd still get it). Miller was a great player and deserves more respect than you're giving him. Besides, the point was I'm not sure if Curry is as clutch a shooter as was Miller.

And, "homer for the 80's/90's".......from you....I can't even bear the hypocrisy. My perspective, though, is certainly better than yours. I was there for all of it.

Malone doesn't have titles because there was a guy in Chicago stopping him and a guy in Houston, too. My argument, noted above, isn't solely about rings, anyway.

Stockton, the greatest assist man in NBA history, is a better PG than Paul, better defender, too. I'll take Stockton and beat your CP3 led team all day long. I love Nash, as well. He was my favorite player from that era, but he wasn't in the class of Paul, Stockton, Thomas, or any of them.

I like how you've referred to an argument about Miller, twice, which I didn't even make in order to bolster your erroneous argument. Says quite a bit.

Ten Best Players of the Jordan Era (In no particular order)

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Isaiah Thomas
4. Charles Barkley
5. Karl Malone
6. John Stockton
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Patrick Ewing
9 Shaquille O'Neal
10. Clyde Drexler

Honorable Mention - Pre-injury Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill, who easily could've bumped a couple off the list had they not the misfortune they did.

*No Kareem. He might have still been worthy of the designation in the mid- to late-80s, but he's a bit of a stretch to include.

 

Petrovic was 28 and a half when he died. Doncic is 22 and already has a better NBA resume. Please, just stop with the nonsense.

 

The, um, landscape was a bit, um, different for Eastern Europeans in the 1980s.Drazen Petrovic is playing in the NBA at 22 if it’s 2021

 

How many seasons did Petrovic play in the NBA?

 

I’m not sure that’s the final judgment on how good a player like that was. Similar with Arvydas Sabonis. But don’t stop.

 

I mean, feel free to explain your logic. I see Doncic with less NBA seasons, 6 years younger, and a better NBA career. By the time his career is over, this will be a laughable discussion.

 

I think that you know, communism and the Iron Curtain and whatnot probably limited Petrovic’s opportunity. He was really [uck fay]ing good at basketball for years before he played in the NBA.