COVID-19 (artist formerly known as Wuhan strain novel Corona virus)

Discussion in 'The Thunderdome' started by IP, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    they participate in gathering personal info for china without public comment, but here they blow the whistle. wonder if with the wrong people in power here, would they blow the whistle? (rhetorical, they didn't until now)
     
  2. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    I don't know what to make of your statement and rhetorical question.

    Everyone collects personal data, everywhere, all the time.
     
  3. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    They’re proactively seeking out and removing apps from the App Store (in China) that they know won’t fly with the Chinese government. They’re actively giving up people’s data, they same data they claim in other countries should be private. They’re not trying to change anything.
     
  4. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    I know none of you can read, but the question you responded to was a question of a response:

    "China is doing a good job of changing them."

    "How so?"

    That means: how is China changing them?

    Apple has always collected personal data. Apple has always shared with government upon legal obligation. Apple has always removed offending apps from App Store. That's why it is a closed market.

    How is China changing Apple?
     
  5. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    At a minimum, I read on an 8th grade level.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html
     
  6. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    How is that China changing Apple?

    Apple has always said they will conduct business according to the law of the country they are in. They are now conducting business according to the laws of China, the place they are in. No change.

    You can't do business in China the way you can do business in the United States. A change, would be if Apple starting doing business in the US the way they do business in China. Or if they start doing business in China, the way they do business in the US.

    But it is not their obligation to do that. If we, the people, want China changed, we, the people, should demand that our government step in and change China. Not that some random tech company does. The US government.

    China has not changed Apple. Apple, in more ways the the US government, has changed China. Because the US thinks the Chinese people should change their own government. And Apple has changed some things for the Chinese people. It isn't much, sure. But it is more than the people's government of the United States have done.
     
  7. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    if you are saying Apple's privacy and data rights stances change based on where they are standing, then there is agreement. it seems that where there is disagreement is that you think this is something I have to accept and not object to, because they can and legally must. I do not accept it.
     
  8. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    "We at Apple believe that privacy is a fundamental human right."

    - Apple CEO, Tim Cook

    "Here, Chinese government. Per your laws, we will store Chinese citizen's data on state managed computers. Oh, and we will also store the digital keys needed to unlock that information on computers in those same data centers, essentially giving you free reign over your citizens' data."

    - also Apple CEO, Tim Cook
     
  9. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Yes. And?

    He is no different than you, he has a belief, and can do nothing about it.

    The difference is nobody expects you to do anything about it, but you expect him to.
     
  10. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    I don't care if you object to it, object to it. But don't say things that aren't true. China isn't changing Apple. Apple is following China's law.
     
  11. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    By operating under China's law, Apple has changed their previous (and currently held, in other places) stance. I.e., China has changed them. You don't have to agree, I am restating my position because we seem to not share the same reality. In mine, Apple has taken a stance elsewhere and at other times that differs from now. In your reality, Apple is a passenger who exhibits no agency in where/how it operates, seeking only growth. I can understand how you can think that, as that is how they and other corporations actually behave, but because corporations are run by and made up of people, there is agency and they are making collective choices.
     
    Indy likes this.
  12. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Apple has not changed their stance, in how they operate in China. They have not changed their stance, in how they operate in the US. They have not changed their stance in how they operate elsewhere.

    That how they operate in China is not the same as how they operate in the US is not a change. That's just a fact. That's captain obvious. Apple does not operate in China the same way they operate in the US, and that has always been true. Always. So there is no change.

    You seem to think they should operate the same, regardless of market. And that is fine. But that does not mean they have changed. They have not. They have always, always, always operated differently based on the market. And that operation is based on the laws of the market they are in.

    This is the equivalent of saying that Chile or Ecuador, or whatever, changed you, because you got a gun drawn on you because you wore a hat and sunglasses in a hotel, or whatever. But that is only true if you stopped wearing hats and sunglasses all over. They didn't change you, you followed the current laws. Just like you do when you drive on the other side of the road. Or don't spit on the sidewalk in Thailand. You weren't changed. You just followed the law. That's all Apple has done.

    In my reality, Apple is exactly as they are, not some made up thing. I am not claiming they are a passenger, any more than saying you driving on the wrong side of the wrong is just a passenger. You will reap the consequences of your actions. Apple is free to do what they choose to do, and will face the consequences. They choose to follow the law of their host country. They can still make a difference doing so. You seem to think they should take a stand. But I don't see you running around Thailand spitting on things, even though, I imagine, you think people should be free to spit.
     
  13. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    following rules regarding spitting and driving is in keeping with my values, even as the rules vary. I don't spit here. I drive on the correct side of the road here. If my business is spitting, I wouldn't go where I could not spit freely. if one's business is privacy and data security, one can't keep their values where the concept of privacy just doesn't exist.
     
    HCKevinSteele and Indy like this.
  14. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    A "when in Rome" argument for how China treats people was unexpected.
     
  15. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    You have misunderstood the argument. It is not a "when in Rome." It is a "why must they, when the people that should, won't?" argument. Why must Apple refuse to operate in China, when the US government won't?

    I don't see Apple has requiring higher values than our own elected government. You seem to think they should, and I can't figure out why. Does Apple have higher values than the US with regards to human rights? I don't think so.

    Then we should be shouting at the top, not the middle.
     
  16. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Following the laws of the country Apple is in is in keeping with their values. You seem to think "privacy" or whatever is a higher value than "following the law." I doubt that is true, but that is how you've ranked it.

    It is all well and good to say you wouldn't do business in areas that don't share you values, and yet... you post about coworkers who don't share your values. It seems a contradiction.

    Apple's business is not privacy and data security. As part of doing business, Apple has adopted varying degrees of privacy and security. But it is not anywhere near the top of their business. It's way down at the bottom.
     
  17. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    The law is not a value, it is a system of rules. Rules are not inherently just or virtuous.
    My coworkers are not a country. This is not a sensible analogy. There are plenty of people who have differing views and values than me everywhere and I never implied otherwise.

    Clearly it is not near the top of their business, and thus I won't take them seriously or see them as trustworthy regarding privacy and security. And if this sentiment eventually affects regulation of them in this country, cool.
     
  18. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Following rules or not is a value. Regardless of whether the rule is just or not. So yes, following the law is a value.

    Why your coworkers not being a country matters, I do not know. You have a set of values, and I assume contribute some value to your business. Your cowokers have a set of values, and I assume contribute some value to your business.

    So your business is a mixed bag of values, and that doesn't bother you.

    The US has a set of values, and I assume, contributes some value to Apple. China has a set of values, and I assume contributes some value to Apple.

    Apple's business is a mixed bag of values, and that bothers you.

    You shouldn't take them seriously or seem them as trustworthy regarding privacy and security. They'll follow the law, not their own guidance, because the law is a higher power. You should work on the higher power, not the middle power.
     
  19. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    I believe this argument was used at the Nuremburg trials, and it was determined that this was no excuse.

    In the lense of the business, there is not conflict regarding these differences. There is great alignment on who our customer is and how to serve them.

    The value gained by Apple has never been in question or dispute.

    Apple's business values are not a mixed bag. They are "make money." They are not honest about this, as evidenced by the statements they make here and the actions they take there.

    The law can be changed. They themselves lobby for changes. I am not a murderer, but it isn't because murder is illegal.
     
  20. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    This is not exactly true. The "I was just following orders" argument didn't work in the absence of orders. The ones found guilty of crimes against humanity produced no actual order that said for them to do what they were doing.

    But let's suppose that they did. At Nuremburg, those on trial individually were punished. But not before the government of Germany was punished. Relentlessly. With all kinds of exploded ordinance. Which means, at the very least, you're getting Nuremburg started before you've bombed Germany.

    You need to fix China, before you try Apple, if you want to maintain this Nuremburg precedent.

    There is great alignment on who the customer is at Apple, and how to serve them. They serve US customers as they would any other US customer. They serve Chinese customers as they would any other Chinese customer. They do not serve US customers as they serve Chinese customers. Because those aren't the same customer.

    They are honest. They have said they will follow the laws of the country they are in. They have never said everyone would be treated the same. Ever. You've made this up.

    Most of this last line is captain obvious: The law can be changed. They do lobby for changes. These are captain obvious statements.

    There would be murderers, though. And you shouting for people to stop murdering is wasted effort. Your effort should be to change the law that makes murder illegal. Just as we should be saying the US government should be changing how Apple interacts with China, not that Apple should change it.
     

Share This Page