Dave Hart

Discussion in 'VOLuminous' started by tvolsfan, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Tar Volon

    Tar Volon Me Blog @RockyTopTalk.com

    They were the first people who came right out and said that Stokes was committing, not the first people who reported it after it had happened. Sorry if that was confusing. That said, a lot of people knew that Stokes was planning on coming to Tennessee and didn't make it public for various reasons. So it's not like this proves FL98 is particularly inside
     
  2. O+W=H.

    O+W=H. New Member

    Damn Tenny, I got lost in Gatlinburg...
     
  3. droski

    droski Traffic Criminal

    his recruiting at UW has been vastly overrated and he's kind of a [ussy pay] playcalling wise. i don't think he'll ever make it big at uw. price is an eltie qb and might bail him out for a couple of years though. i'd hire carrol in a heartbeat.
     
  4. volfanjo

    volfanjo Chieftain

    Does anyone honestly think we were about to hire Bob Stoops or Chris Peterson but Hamilton said, "Only if you keep Thompson and Chaney... that's the deal"? Come on. Dooley in short order summarily told Cregg, Ausmus, and Willie Mack to walk. Maybe they would have left anyway. It wasn't like Dooley begged or pleaded to keep them around. Thompson staying made sense... they knew each other and he was in the past at least an ace recruiter. Regardless of what you think of this current iteration of Chaney there was enough on his resume to safely assume he could run an offense.

    Dooley took the job for a very obvious reason: It is a great job. It is Tennessee. The SEC. It ain't Ruston, LA or the WAC. And haven't many of us found ourselves in jobs we weren't quite ready for but the opportunity was too good to pass up? And some of us probably succeeded, and others of us failed. We just don't have the chance to fail so spectacularly for all the public to see.
     
  5. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Wait, there are chicks that will give you a handjob before appetizers? That IS the catch of a lifetime.
     
  6. kptvol

    kptvol Super Moderator

    I'd bet ten gazillion dollars multiple Memphis sites reported it earlier.
     
  7. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D The law is of supreme importance, or no importance

    You miss the point. I don't assert that this requirement alone was all that prevented Hammy from landing a better coach - several things made it difficult - but if the job came with the stipulation that the incoming coach had to keep certain personnel on staff, most notably the offensive coordinator, that only made it so much worse of a proposition. In fact, telling a coach who will / will not be on staff is likely an automatic deal-breaker to many coaches, and certainly would have been for any as accomplished as the ones I mentioned (i.e. Gruden, Peterson, Patterson, etc.). Thus, my aside in asking the outcome of the Bama AD attempting to dictate to Saban who would / would not be on his staff. Simply, it was a tough sell to begin with, and that requirement - miraculously, almost - somehow made it worse, and likely eliminated a large swath of far more qualified / appealing / sought after coaches, instead of Dooley. Maybe I wasn't clear, but did try to come on. Did I make it?

    Your second sentence corrected the first, and nicely. I have nothing to add.

    So, Dooley almost immediately knew which coaches were worth keeping around, and which were (like these) not, and conveniently, you assume that he somehow didn't want the ones who wanted to leave, and did so of their own accord, ultimately joining Kiffin at USC? You-can't-leave-me-because-I-don't-want-you-here sort of thing? Let's suppose that you're right - you're not, but let's pretend - then how damning is that of Dooley to want rid of those three, and then to replace them with the three he named as their successors? If you wouldn't take those three back - today, at this moment - you are delusional. If you're trying to help Dooley here, and I assume you are (nothing wrong with that), I'd stick with simply saying you don't know if he wanted them here, or not, as any other possibility is going to show him as being incompetent, a fool, or both.

    Again, my point was not who "made sense" and who did not "make sense" to keep, nor was it in regards to any particular coach. My point was that almost any coach, and certainly those as well-established and successful as those we've mentioned, would never, ever allow an AD to dictate their staff. Ever. If Mal Moore called up Saban right now and said that his mentor Belichik had agreed to come to Tuscaloosa as the Co-DCoordinator for the grand total of $1 per year (I can't think of a more egregious example than this, so I'm hoping this sticks) and no other staffing moves had to be made (i.e. Smart wouldn't have to be fired or demoted) - if Saban didn't want him on his staff, for whatever reason, including simply to oppose Moore's meddling with his staff, he would say no. If Moore pressed the issue, Saban would tell him to get bent, and would pack his shit and leave that day. Please believe that. So, simply, it doesn't matter about who the particular assistant coach we're talking about / his credentials/ suitability / likability / personal tastes / preferences / opinions / talents / skills / or Netflix subscription status - dictating staff to a coach is a line which AD's simply cannot cross with a respectable coach. And there are hundreds of examples out there to support this, but the one that leaps to mind is Cutclffe at Ole Miss. He was told to cut bait on some assistants that he may have decided to cut loose anyway, but because he was told to do it, "or else" - he chose the latter, and the long-time assistant walked away from his first head coaching gig after only 3-4 (?) years, and when his own job wasn't even on the line. Why? Because he wasn't going to allow their AD to dictate his staff. That's how seriously, and sincerely, most coaches take it. Another case in point - if Hiestand is employed next season, it's strictly because Dooley wanted him to remain on staff, and others deferred to him on it, despite mountainous and innumerous reasons that he should have been shit-canned weeks ago.


    I am not sure what you intend here, really. I assert that any coach worth his salt would not have accepted the terms that he did, essentially, that he had to keep Cheney and Thompson, if he felt like he was good enough to demand it be removed, or that he would ever get a similar opportunity, again.

    Are you admitting that Dooley was ill-prepared for this gig? It sounds like you are, and that is exactly what I am saying, Jo. And that's why he couldn't refuse those terms - because he couldn't do so without missing what is likely to be his only opportunity. It's not like there were many programs of Tennessee's size beating down his door in Ruston......including Mike Hamilton, who was hiring Tennessee's coach only a year before, and immediately after Dooley was coming off his one winning season and a bowl game win. It's hard to imagine that the losing record he had the following year, and which preceded his being hired at Tennessee somehow made him a more attractive candidate, did it?

    He wasn't ready for it, and likely would have never earned it on his own merit (he had a losing record at LA Tech for crap sakes) had he not made the deal with the devil to keep members of the former staff.....and which few, if any, other coaches would have agreed to do.

    I hope this clears up my point, but isn't too over the top.
     
  8. kptvol

    kptvol Super Moderator

    Finger food and handjobs. That's what I'm talking about.
     
  9. kptvol

    kptvol Super Moderator

    That is inaccurate. I am almost positive all three of those guys left on their own.
     
  10. volfanjo

    volfanjo Chieftain

    So let me see if I follow with some questions enclosed:

    1. If I am following, according to you, Dooley was the only person that possibly could have been hired because he and he alone accepted the condition that Thompson and Chaney remain, yet Cregg, Garza, Reaves, and Ausmus were fair game. Also, Kippy Brown was fair game. So, what about these others were unacceptable? Why were Chaney and Thompson the chosen ones and therefore "protected". And really, what if Dooley would have turned around and axed everyone in the department? Was Hamilton really in a position to fire Dooley at that point? I know some folks in that department too, and Dooley wasn't exactly delicate in changing the program in his mold early on.
    2. Why did Kiffin leave the others behind? By your implication, they would have left anyway, right? But what is the reasoning for this... simply collecting on a financial package after being fired? And Cregg and Ausmus wanted to remain from what folks told me... is that accurate?
    3. Lastly, I don't think accepting a job under non-ideal conditions marks one an automatic loser. Al Golden took a job at Temple that was the worst -- the worst -- conditions I have ever seen with my own two eyes. And he thrived. With very few resources and an administration that cared less. And he parlayed it into a job at a BCS school.
     
  11. 615 Vol

    615 Vol Chieftain

    Willie Mack snuck out the back door under the cover of darkness in the night.
     
  12. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Fl98 also claims to have broken the Arnett story, when that story had been out there since before the end of the season.
     
  13. kptvol

    kptvol Super Moderator

    Highly doubt Cregg following Kiffin wasn't his choice. He was one of the first out the door.

    As far as the other guys, all reports stated that they were leaving to take other jobs, not that Dooley was booting them.
     
  14. kptvol

    kptvol Super Moderator

    My opinion is that when Dooley was hired it was understood that he'd try to keep as much of the staff together as he could. Remember all the talk abour UT having the best staff in the nation? It wasn't that far off and a lot of people, Mike Hamilton and probably Dooley, agreed with that notion. Unfortunately, most of those guys were closer to Kiffin and readily departed when invited to LA. David Reaves was obviously slightly different.
     
  15. volfanjo

    volfanjo Chieftain

    Cregg, Ausmus, and Reaves were all dismissed if my memory serves me. I
     
  16. CardinalVol

    CardinalVol Uncultured, non-diverse mod

    Reaves yes, but I thought the other two were more 50/50.

    Could be wrong.
     
  17. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D The law is of supreme importance, or no importance

    You're not following me. I said that any stipulations as to their staff would have almost certainly been a deal-breaker for most coaches, especially those of the ilk that we would seek to hire. That Dooley accepted those terms speaks as strongly to his insufficient qualifications as anything.

    Of the five coaches you mentioned, Cregg / Garza / Reeves were perceived as being different than Thompson / Cheney, with the delineation being made on those who wanted or intended to stay at Tennessee, and those who did not. It should be obvious as to which group was which. And how do you think that Hammy / Dooley came to know that the other three wanted to leave.....is it possible they had talked to them about staying, and were flatly refused? That they left soon thereafter should offer some insight. And the reason that Thompson / Cheney were "protected" was because they did indicate a willingness / desire to stay, and thus, they were retained by Dooley. Recall, you never heard a word about Dooley even hinting at making a move on those two, or in evaluating (hell, contemplating) their replacements. Why not? If he's picking his staff, wouldn't you at least want to know what possible candidates may be interested in being the OC at Tennessee? Wouldn't you at least talk to some people? Why didn't Dooley? Because he knew from the get-go that those two were to be retained, and he never had any ideation of running them off.....because he knew that they came with the job....which only (again) feeds my larger point. Does that sound to you like a man who could "run around firing everyone"? Me, neither.


    And Kippy was different, altogether, not neatly fitting into either group. He had only been here, what, a month before Kiffin left, IIRC? And while he did admirably hold things together, it was all self-serving, IMO. Once he knew that his demand to be named full-on HC - not interim HC, mind you, he wanted it all - he bolted.


    And, no, I don't recall that any of the three were fired - or Tennessee would have had to pay the difference in salary at their next position, IIRC. I can't speculate as to why they stayed behind, initially, but your theory as to their financial package seems entirely reasonable. If I had to guess, I'd agree with you - but would add that they were also ensuring that any loose ends with recruits was also being tied up. I think its reasonable to believe that Kiffin assumed (hoped?) Hammy would fire them without thinking it through, and would get stuck paying them to coach at USC. But, again, that's pure speculation.

    Where was I so vague as to merely say that the job was "less than ideal"? I said that a more accomplished and deserving coach would not have allowed the AD to dictate his staff. That Dooley did furthers the belief that he had no choice but to agree with the requirement, as his own merits alone were insufficient. Which, again, is exactly why he was never considered, much less interviewed, just a year prior to his hiring, when Kiffin was hired at Tennessee, instead. What occurred in the intervening year (besides Dooley finished with a losing record at LA Tech) that suddenly made him the best candidate for the job? He agreed to take over a shit situation, for dirt cheap, and to allow his staff to be dictated to him. That's not only why he got the job, and other than some marginal benefit which he derived from his hair, his last name or his southern drawl - it's the ONLY reason he got it. How do I know that? Well, because he was wholly unqualified and - even as you say - ill-prepared for the position then, and remains so now.

    And for my $.02 Tennessee is no proving ground for coaches, and the longer he stays here, undeservedly, the larger the farce he becomes, and us along with him.

    I'm sure that we don't see eye to eye on that, but it's ok, as I've enjoyed the exchange, nonetheless.
     
  18. volfanjo

    volfanjo Chieftain

    At least as it was reported in the media, Cregg, Reaves and Ausmus were all dismissed. That could be window dressing -- and not the "whole" truth -- but that is the only documented evidence I can go by. I still believe had Cregg been given a legitimate offer to stay he would have. I think not retaining Cregg was one of the early fractures of the Dooley/Aaron Douglas relationship.

    As for the rest of it: I think a lot of ink has been spilled about Dooley the man... the micro-manager, the mama's boy, the jerk, the insecurity, the pretense, the last name, and so on. And it is germane to understanding Dooley the man and the football coach. I don't doubt it. But it seems, for lack of a better word, overkill at this point. In that critical week when many of us thought Dooley would get the heave-ho the floodgates opened about Dooley's personality. It was -- and still is -- fair game. And for some folks they hoped these revelations would be enough to get the momentum to can him. But we are coming to realization where he is the head coach for this coming year. Which means the pop psychology we all have been doing on him is pretty irrelevant now, fun or not. Sure, his quirks might be a symptom of the disease that is losing football games. But it is the losing football games that at the end of the day is the only thing he can really be judged on. And I will never be a person who actively roots for a coach's failure just because they aren't the answer.

    So, here is where I am. Others can join me if they wish. I hope we hire some great coaches, get some great players, Dooley coaches them up, and win the SEC next year. And I will spend the next 9 months focused on this. And when that doesn't happen it won't take message board posters to seal his fate. He will have done it himself.
     

Share This Page