Tee Martin to coach WR's at USC

Discussion in 'Vols Football' started by FlowingAway., Feb 15, 2012.

  1. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Kiffin doesn't even begrudge Tennessee even with all the red neck contingent making asses of themselves constantly. Our fanbase really needs to take a reality-check on Kiffin, and the nature of the coaching INDUSTRY in general.

    Good for Tee Martin. Hope he continues to advance his careeer.
     
  2. kptvol

    kptvol Super Moderator

    Yep. This should be avoid thing. A Vol just went from one of the bottom five football programs in the country to a top 5 one. Pretty good promotion there.
     
  3. Snakeonia

    Snakeonia Active Member

    anyone else have a "camp Kiffin" shirt from his one year here at UT? still my fav UT shirt
     
  4. tidwell

    tidwell Chieftain

    Ha, yes.
     
  5. MaconVol

    MaconVol Chieftain

    I still have the It's Time 2009 season T shirt.
     
  6. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D The law is of supreme importance, or no importance

    After some thought, here is where I landed:

    1. Kiffin is simply a better coach, in every known and tangible measure, than Dooley - and it's really not even debatable, at least with the evidence currently available. And worse, he seems not only more capable of seeing advantages earlier and from a greater distance, but is far more likely to then act on these perceived opportunities than others, including Dooley. And whereas Dooley looks and sounds organized, but is often anything but, Kiffin can often come across as far-less calculating than he is. But from those who know / worked for him, that was far from the case, as he not only always had an angle, but was always looking to leverage and to take advantage of it. He always has both a motive and a plan. Always.

    2. While Tee Martin has distinguished himself as an asset on the recruiting trail, it's difficult to imagine that his coaching experience / acumen qualifies him to be even a positional coach at either USC or Tennessee. So, the lion's share of his value to a staff is the former, and not the latter.

    3. That Kiffin wanted a young, energetic, hungry coach who has just begun to distinguish himself on the recruiting trail should not be surprising, but neither should it be that Dooley did not, given their respective situations and needs:

    Kiffin's Perspective:
    Kiffin's MO is clear and well-documented - he seeks to acquire the best recruiters available, oftentimes even at the detriment to their actual value as coaches, and does so with the intent of giving him a stronger reach into a certain area or region. And it's even more appealing when he can produce the doubling effect of taking these type(s) of coaches from others (helps him, hurts them), who were relying on them for the same reason(s) (i.e. If Kentucky had Tee on staff for his strong ties in Florida, then Kiffin aides his own efforts in that state, and diminishes Kentucky's, in taking him). Or, and what may not be widely known, is that Kiffin took him for his own strong recruiting efforts, but also, to keep him away from a rival program who might have considered or was attempting to do the same, in an attempt to strengthen their position in the same way and locale. Continuing the example of Tee's recruiting strength in Florida (which is just being used here, as an example, having no idea if that's true or not), insofar as he is at Kentucky, neither Kiffin nor anyone else of consequence would worry too much about him in Florida, not matter how strong his ties or deep his inroads - simply because he isn't going to singlehandedly beat out the likes of USC / Bama / LSU for the most coveted recruits in Florida while wearing a Kentucky blue and white necktie. But, if Kiffin suspected that an equal counterpart might soon make a move on Tee - say, an Alabama, LSU, Texas, etc. - then his "value" to Kiffin exponentially increases, even beyond that which may be there for other programs, simply because he would be a naturally stronger and more formidable opponent on the recruiting trail in Florida, were he wearing a crimson "A" instead of an interlocked "UK" on his lapel. In fact, were he to land on Bama's staff (again, this is an entirely fictitious example), and could couple their recent successes and already strong geographic advantage with his already known and strong recruiting ties in the state, he might serve to greatly diminish or effectively refute the efforts of others who hoped to gain similar entree and/or footing, including USC and Kiffin. So, while Alabama may want him simply to strengthen an already strong position / advantage, USC may see him as being necessary to even hope to compete against the Tide for similar footing, or to prevent being shut out of the area, altogether. Just as you would fight harder to save your life than you would for even a large sum of money (say, $100K), naturally, he would have an intrinsically higher value to the coach / staff / school who may face nearly impossible odds if required to compete against him, versus the one who simply was looking to grow stronger. Simply, Kiffin might not have hired Tee so much as an aide to his own efforts, or even to harm his current school, but to prevent another and far stronger team who may soon seek to do the same, and who would pose a far greater threat, were they to do so, instead.

    And frankly, the dynamics of Kiffin's staff are far more allowing of him to do so, and certainly more than Dooley's. Why? Well, because Kiffin is the offensive coordinator / QB coach at USC - and it doesn't matter on whit who he has "officially" named to those, or any other offensive positions. Don't agree? Well, go back and re-read the articles about how "involved" Cheney was with Tennessee's offense during Kiffin's tenure, either in the development of the offense, or the actual game day play-calling (Spoiler Alert: he scouted opponents and "made suggestions" as to the in-game play-calling, but it was all Kiffin, all the time). And that liberty allows him to be better able to hire a young and relatively inexperienced coach - and who was primarily another ace recruiter, than most.

    Dooley's Perspective:
    Dooley is not the offensive coach, by any measure or account, and must fill out his staff with coaches who are (allegedly) good coaches, first and foremost, and not simply pure recruiters, like Kiffin. Why? Because insofar as some active and honest debate remains about just what, exactly, Dooley's coaching expertise remains (i.e. is he more of an offensive or defensive minded coach, what is his positional area of expertise or ability, exactly, anyway?), he simply doesn't have the luxury of hiring coaches who are singularly, or even primarily, "ace" recruiters, as Kiffin can / does have.

    4. There's an ironic twist that's possible occurred, albeit a loosely veiled one:

    While I don't believe that Kiffin would do things differently, if offered the opportunity again (meaning, remain at UT if USC offered), I do believe that he regrets how it all went down - the suddenness, timing, etc. And despite the enormous and visceral reaction which his departure garnered - including the inexcusable acts of abstract stupidity which a very few members of our fan base either threatened or committed against him (i.e. showing up at his home, threatening his personal safety, or especially, that of his family) - I think that he came to understand that it arose from the scorn of a deep affection and the dashing of an enormous amount of hope which so many held for him, here, however twisted and demented it may have first appeared. And I think he not only understood that fact, but appreciated it, and continues to do so. Had any other offer came along - save USC or an NFL gig - I think that Lane Kiffin is not only still here, but would be exceedingly glad about it, and excited about what he was building. He can love LA and USC all day long, and could undoubtedly rattle off a laundry list of the many advantages which being out there might better afford him, than if he had stayed here - and as painful as it would be for us to hear, they would all be quite true. But there is something that he had here, and does not nor ever will have there - either consistently or in remotely equal measure - namely, we, the fans. That's not to say that USC doesn't have fans - hundreds of thousands, if not millions of them - many of whom are just as sincere in supporting their school as we are of ours......but it's a different type of fandom, altogether, really. While both groups are passionate, theirs is infinitely more passive, temporal and vacillating - whereas ours is an unrelenting and insatiable one of single-mindedness and perpetual focus, both at the individual and collective levels, and admittedly, one which too often borders on an unhealthy (and perhaps psychotic) obsession. And this doesn't make the USC fans "bad" or lesser, per se, but merely the natural result of being in a larger city, and which allows their passion and attention to be dissipated across several teams, and various sports (i.e. Lakers, Dodgers, UCLA, Clippers, etc.). Here, there is Tennessee, alone, and I am not even sure what might be second (cockfighting?). And for anyone who had the chance to meet him, however casual or infrequently, the significance of this should be self-evident: our fan base is much more akin to Kiffin's personality than USC's, more to his liking, and much more appreciated. Privately, he'd likely admit the same. While he may have loathed the local media (he did), detested the busy bodies boosters who felt like their donation gave them some imaginary license with him / his team (he did) or resented the naive, near-sighted and oftentimes indefensibly stupid actions and interferences of the UTAD / UTK Administration (he certainly did) - for the most part, he loved the fans, and always welcomed their full and passionate support of all things Tennessee, and in any form, be it in scrutinizing his every word and deed, criticisms, concerns, distractions or even to give compliments (he hated these worse than the criticisms, I think). Kiffin might have disliked a great many things here, but the fans were not one of them, by any measure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  7. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D The law is of supreme importance, or no importance

    So, what's the significance of this Kiffin-based love fest, and how does it relate to Tee Martin?

    Because I think that Kiffin truly respected Tennessee's program (and still does), and those - like Tee Martin - who made it into what it was, and what he hoped to restore. And, I think that he is saying that in deed, and not word, by hiring him. While many often point to his hanging a picture of Reggie Bush at the indoor field as Exhibit A in their indictment of his alleged apathy or outright disdain for our program and its traditions (which by the way, was only done in an effort to attract those players of similar ilk to The Hill, and to us, instead - and which was quite effective at doing that, I might add) - it's impossible to continue to believe that such could possibly be true, given his hiring of Tee Martin, arguably, the player who most directly lead to our most recent and greatest success. Now, do I propose that he hired Tee Martin as a way of combating those allegations, and which were silly to him even then (What? Do you think that everyone failed to notice the two-story poster of Reggie Bush which was hanging up at the indoor field at any point prior to his announced departure?)? Absolutely not. But I am equally certain that the significance was not lost on him, and neither should it be on you, either. As I said earlier, Kiffin always has a plan, and there is almost always a meaning to just about all that he does / says.

    What's the significance as it relates to Dooley? Simply stated, he doesn't care about the players who made Tennessee what it is - and in fact, doesn't want them around, as he feels threatened as to how they might hinder his continuing efforts to put his own fingerprints on it / or to shift the focus away from his "accomplishments". That's why former players have to make an appointment to simply drop in to say hello to everyone, they cannot simply come in and workout as they have for years, and most recently (and telling) - that's why Jay Graham was forced down his throat, and over his many objections (he was - it was 100% Hart's call).

    So while so many are certain that Kiffin hates Tennessee and has no respect for it because he left, and that Dooeley does simply because he is here - that may not only be wrong, but in fact the exact opposite may quite easily be true.

    Just my $.09.
     
  8. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D The law is of supreme importance, or no importance

    I agree with it all, Mac, except for the highlighted portion, which I know to be patently false.
     
  9. Snakeonia

    Snakeonia Active Member

    so you're saying kiffin looks at UT like we would look at an ex gf. we leave the ex for what we think is a hotter girl. while we are happy with the hotter(dream) girl, we still look back and remember what could've been with the ex? is that what you're saying?
     
  10. LawVol13

    LawVol13 Chieftain

    I don't fault Tee, and I also wasn't for hiring Tee at Tennessee. That stance remains the same. Just because Lane Kiffin hired him doesn't mean it was a mistake for Tennessee not to.
     
  11. LawVol13

    LawVol13 Chieftain

    This argument has absolutely no validity to me. At all. If Dooley had hired Tee Martin, IndyVol would have been on here leading the charge that it was a horrible hire, and he was just hiring him because he played QB at UT. I would have agreed with that, but now, suddenly, because Lane Kiffin hires him, that is also used as ammunition against Dooley. But now, the argument becomes that Tee is actually a "diamond in the rough." I think this position is retarded.
     
  12. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    1. No, i would not have been on here "leading the charge" that it was a horrible hire because I honestly wouldn't know the first reasons for why he would be a good/bad hire. That's why i said if he was good enough for Kiffin, shouldn't he be good enough for us, and did not try to make any other backing to the argument that we should have hired him.

    2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i remember Kiffin putting together a pretty damn good staff while he was here for his one year at UT. Is it not safe to assume that his doing so was not just pure dumb luck, and that maybe he knows a good coach when he sees one?

    3. When did I ever say Tee was a "diamond in the rough?" I simply stated that if he is good enough to coach for Kiffin and USC, a team that will be ranked in the top 5 in the country with a Heisman candidate QB, why wouldn't he be good enough to bring to UT? Perhaps you could answer that since you are so set on how bad of a hire he would have been for us. I really don't know the answer, but you didn't exactly base your opinion (that it would have been bad to hire Tee) on anything at all.
     
  13. justingroves

    justingroves supermod

    This is where I'm at. As Tenny D said, Kiffin is a good enough offensive coordinator/QB coach he doesn't really need one on staff. It frees up one or maybe two spots for simply a great recruiter. Dooley can't and should not have made room for an unproven WR coach.
     
  14. LawVol13

    LawVol13 Chieftain

    You're playing games. You clearly implied that it was a mistake for Dooley not to hire Tee Martin. It was very clear. I don't give a rat's ass what kind of staff Kiffin puts together. He's not at Tennessee, and he's not the only barometer for determining who is or is not a good position coach. It would have been a bad hire for us because we don't have the first clue if Tee can coach a lick or not. None. Dooley isn't in a position where he can just "hope" that someone turns out ok. Also, we have Hinshaw, who has actually turned out to be a very good coach and a very good recruiter in the position that Tee would have been in. At this point, Hinshaw's more established than Tee. So, why not try getting your head out of Kiffin's ass and actually look at things rationally. Who USC hires shouldn't concern Tennessee at all. I wish Tee the best of luck. And, out of all the things that Dooley can legitimately be bashed about, not hiring Tee Martin should not be on the list. Move on to something else.
     
  15. LawVol13

    LawVol13 Chieftain

    I think this is spot on.
     
  16. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D The law is of supreme importance, or no importance

    If everyone knew how badly Saban wanted Tee, it would hurt your parent's feelings.

    Kiffin didn't beat us for Tee (as others have said, we never reached out - formally or otherwise), and Tee didn't spurn us for Kiffin, but Saban, instead.

    I don't see how taking (arguably) Kentucky's best recruiter (you know, the same Kentucky who we compete against every year) and keeping him away from Saban is a bad thing at all, no matter how many ways you slice it.

    In fact, the two best "good guys" in this, insofar as TN fans should be concerned, is Kiffin and Tee.
     
  17. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D The law is of supreme importance, or no importance

    I can't fault any of this line of thought, Law.

    Kiffin is not the automatic gold standard by which hiring / coaching decisions should be made. I agree with this 100%.

    And while Kiffin's actions at USC are not typically of any significance to us, this move certainly was - as it involved a UT hero, Bama and Kentucky. But I totally understand your point in that it doesn't directly involve us.
     
  18. justingroves

    justingroves supermod

    Saban is another coach in a position to hire recruiters over coaches.
     
  19. kidbourbon

    kidbourbon Well-Known Member

    But if he were to hire a coach as a "pure recruiter", one would think it would be on the defensive side.
     
  20. justingroves

    justingroves supermod

    He doesn't have to have two secondary coaches like Dooley.
     

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