POLITICS The Biden Presidency

Discussion in 'Politicants' started by emainvol, Jan 20, 2021.

  1. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    Harm: to damage mentally or physically. None of my examples fit the definition, and there are many more. Wrong and harm are exclusive, not co dependant
     
  2. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    In the case of someone not caring, then no, it wouldn't be a harm, and it wouldn't be wrong. But it isn't up to you to decide that, it is up to the person you called a piece of shit, and you don't know how that is going to go, until you do it. Which makes, in a polite society, you just don't do it. But being polite and being wrong aren't the same thing.
    There is a contract in place that says you pay X regardless of what anyone else pays. If you don't like the contract, you are free to leave this country. But that's the contract, and the US tends to care about this, very much.
    It is up to him to decide if he has been harmed, not you. Whether it makes a drop in the bucket money wise is immaterial. People consider things to be higher than money, and by not paying, you might have harmed the person's pride, even if not their pocketbook. And yes, that is harm.

    My definition of harm is the generally accepted philosophical and legal versions that have been debated for centuries. Yours is just shit you make up. So yea, ours differ.

    Yes, 60 minutes piece did no harm, except to 60 minutes, and harming oneself is personal freedom. $10 debt to a millionaire absolutely may harm, but it's up to him to decided. You are presuming there is a lie. You are presuming it was done to manipulate. These are presumptions of yours, not arguments.
     
  3. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    If you insult me, you have harmed my pride. Pride is mental
    If you don't pay taxes, you have damaged physically the treasury.
    If you don't pay me back my money, you have damaged physically my net worth.

    In every case, they fit.
     
  4. zehr27

    zehr27 8th's VIP

    I was on mobile and misread the first part.
     
  5. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Pride can be like a shrub or tree, sometimes it needs some pruning and the harm is for one's own good.

    Yes, I am just picking nits.
     
  6. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    As you can also do when trying to determine if data is credible.

    But unlike us, studies have peer review, before publication.
     
  7. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    And peer review is obnoxious and tedious. Those who haven't ever gone through it probably don't realize what an ass ache it is and what it means to have made it through that.
     
  8. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    "For one's own good" is a justification used by people who force others to do something the person doesn't want to do.

    You don't get to make the determination of what is good for someone or not, they do.

    The only instance where we should allow decisions to be made against the wish of another is when they lack decision making capability.

    Putting someone on a ventilator who doesn't want it might be "for their own good," but that's medical battery.

    These are basic ethical concepts.
     
  9. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Do I lack decision making ability? If I do not, why are you not allowing me to make my own decisions on what is ethical?
     
  10. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    I am not keeping you from making your own decisions. You are free to do whatever it is that you would like to do, at any time. You just have to face whatever consequences are of those choices.

    When it comes to deciding what is ethical or not, there may or may not be a consequence. That would depend on what was done.
     
  11. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    but you hurt my pride, and therefore have done harm. These are your rules, not mine.
     
  12. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    You won't find me arguing that I haven't harmed you. But you need to explain why I should care that I have.
     
  13. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    There is "peer review" with surgeons who prescribe some technologies after surgery to help patients heal, which are simply ways to say no to keep initial costs down, as the utilization review or peer review is often an 85 year old man in New Mexico who hasn't seen a patient or performed surgery in 25 years, but is paid by the insurance to cite a 20 year old study and deny claims.
     
  14. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Why would I need to explain it? For what purpose? An entity's ability to articulate harm would not influence whether that harm was wrong or not, as the material facts, whatever they may be, would be unaltered by an entity's awareness of them. I don't think I would need to explain it, as it is immaterial. If you don't think it is necessarily wrong to hurt someone's pride, we are in agreement and your "for one's own good" post was misapplied. If you do think it is wrong, then, uh, stop it I guess.
     
  15. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Maybe the private, for-profit insurance system is bad for public health and at odds with seeking scientific advancement and optimal overall health outcomes.
     
    NorrisAlan likes this.
  16. Ssmiff

    Ssmiff Went to the White House...Again

    Maybe, but work comp and Medicare are the main issues with UR denying drs orders, which often leads to more pain and antipsychotic medications, patients not getting back to work on time or at all, and addiction therapy. It's a mess. Why pay an extra $500ish now for patient care, when you can be on the hook for more expensive and longterm bills a few weeks down the road.
     
  17. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    You would need to explain why I shouldn't do it. Because if the answer is, "it's wrong," that's not good enough for me, in this instance. If the answer was like, "it's wrong, and if you don't stop, I will visit upon you a plague the likes of which no person in history has seen or will be seen since," and I know you can do that... I probably stop. Not because it was wrong, but because the consequence was dire.

    I think it is wrong to hurt someone's pride, and that doesn't change, at all, "for one's own good" post. It just means I'm fine with living with the consequences of being wrong. For now. If you become Jeff Bezos or something, I might change my mind, for money.
     
  18. utvol0427

    utvol0427 Chieftain

    You all argue about some dumb shit, but at least it's entertaining.
     
  19. The Dooz

    The Dooz Super Moderator

    It’s just all the [dadgum] liberal jackasses, and they have completely and totally ruined this message board.
     
    SetVol13 likes this.
  20. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    These don't seem like very strong ethical principles. The ethics depend on my ability to explain the harm, or my ability to fund your mind changing? Whew.
     

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