The NBA Thread.

Can fault a guy for getting the [uck fay] out of Cleveland, Ohio.

 

The train of thought has been lost. That James made choices to move around is not relevant to the point that him moving around and having more instability is why he played with so many different guys which is why he's had so many teammates that played in all-star games compared to Jordan. That was the point. In other words, it would be difficult to play in the NBA 17 years and change teams 4 times and NOT have more than 6 teammates play in All Star games of well over 100 (maybe closer to 200, I don't know how to easily find that information) teammates.

 

How salient is this instability point when he leaves Cleveland after 7 years and 1 Finals appearance and then goes to 4 straight Finals, immediately, with the Heat? He sought out guys who were all-stars and would give him a better opportunity to win a title, which means more talent by his side, that's the point. Talent, again, wins out, especially in the NBA, no matter where they end up.

 

wait, are finals appearances a meaningful metric now? Both only had 1 finals appearance in their first 7 seasons. but Lebron has like 10. Jordan has 6. And lebron isn't done.

 

Wade had absolutely moved out of his prime by the time LeBron arrived. Even if you won't buy that, there is absolutely no denying that he was not in his prime for the entirety of his time with LeBron. And then you get to the more important point that LeBron and Wade don't mesh well from a basketball perspective. Their games were too similar, and D Wade didn't have the outside shot that typically goes so well with LeBron.

As for your "11 all star games from 6 different players," what the actual [uck fay]:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...-the-storied-franchises-most-special-one-yet/

The above link takes you to a list of Jordan's best teammates. Just from that list, you get these all-star game appearances:

Pippen - 7
Rodman - 2
Rip Hamilton - 3
Oakley - 1
Grant - 1
Stackhouse - 2
Cartwright - 1
Armstrong - 1
Artis Gilmore - 6
Robert Parish - 4
George Gervin - 9

That's 37 total all-star game appearances from 11 different players. Now, I totally understand some of these guys played a VERY minimal role in Jordan's career, but that doesn't mean you get to just omit them and present the information as you presented it. And if you're going to pick and choose which numbers you count on the Jordan side, it makes me wonder about the accuracy of the numbers on LeBron's side.

And then of course, you get into what IP mentioned about the numbers being disingenuous in the first place. LeBron played with Dwight Howard for 1 season, and he was the backup (3rd, string, really, as he wouldn't have been on the team without Cousins getting injured) center. The fact that he was in 8 all-star games 6-13 years ago seems completely irrelevant. You can make a similar case for Rondo's 4, Ray Allen's 10, etc. Do your numbers include DeMarcus Cousins and his 4 all-star games? He was technically on the Lakers roster at one point.

 

Free agents didn't and don't want to come to Cleveland. This idea that he could hand pick his teammates in Cleveland is ludicrous. It's literally the reason he left in the first place - because they weren't surrounding him with any semblance of a championship roster.

 

The metric? The point is he immediately reached a level consistently higher than he had previously, despite the change and "instability". So, the instability argument doesn't hold much water when the change actually improved his level of achievement.

C'mon, this should be an obvious point.

 

Well, I'll have to go back and look at the stat I randomly came across for qualifiers, like players who appreciably contributed or something. That takes away a significant number of guys from the Jordan list and the point certainly stands the higher number of effective all-star players playing at the all-star level for James. That was the entire point of him going to Miami and L.A., to get guys around him to win a championship. It worked. He got 3 of his 4 titles doing this. You want to ignore this reality because it crimps on your narrative of James single handedly taking these mediocre players or, if they are great, not really anymore. But, it's the bare truth.

And, stop [uck fay]ing selling me on Wade not in his prime in his late 20s or his style didn't mesh with LeBron's. Wade was still scoring over 20 in those years and this was after adding two of the best players in the league. He was an all-star every year and this was the most successful period of James' career. It worked.

 

There is no instability argument. You made an argument about players and all star games, I responded with a causal factor that does not indicate a clear support advantaged for James. You're missing the point.

If I wanted to make an argument, I'd point to the 93-94 season, then try to pull that and other years where either James or Jordan were present and then absent, comparing the effect on the teams success. Miami missed the playoffs and Cleveland suddenly made the playoffs when James left from Miami to Cleveland. Cleveland collapsed after he left again. As soon as James was healthy, the Lakers win a championship. Jordan did not win a championship with the Wizards. Jordan leaving the Bulls did not keep them out of the playoffs. They actually were worse when he came back.

 

Or, you could point to the 94-95 season, where the Bulls were treading at .500, sliding back into mediocrity, when Jordan returned from baseball, went on a winning streak and then won 72 games the next year when he was fully fit. They were not worse when he came back, I don't know where you are getting this.

But, the point is still obvious about the effect of playing in Miami with high caliber teammates. James, his own success, in the same conference, was immediate and markedly better from the change. If you want to factor in the idea of instability and change being a mark towards his greater status, which you have clearly intimated, then it should be evident change actually helped him by the quality of his teammates. Therefore, this idea it was harder because he had a variance of teammates and coaches isn't particularly persuasive since it didn't have a negative effect upon his success, rather the opposite.

And, if the argument is his changes, instability, created more opportunities to play with different all-stars, then it still means he played with more all-stars and players at that sort of level.

 

You seem very honed in on the Miami years while making statements about his career. You keep saying he left and went to better situations with all-stars around him, and while that certainly applies to Miami, you can't really apply that same standard to Cleveland, and you definitely can't apply it to the Lakers.

Kyrie was an all-star for two years (2013 & 2014) before LeBron arrived, but they were 24-58 (13th in the conference) in 2013 and 33-49 (10th in the conference) in 2014. Then you have Kevin Love, another player who isn't an ideal fit for LeBron and had to really alter his game just to be on the floor late in the playoffs. Neither of these guys were the same caliber of all-star that Wade and Bosh were when LeBron joined force with them. Also worth noting that neither played in the Finals in Bron's first year back, they won the second year, they ran into the best team ever assembled in basketball history in year 3, and then Kyrie was gone for year 4. So 1 year out of 4 where he had a legitimate chance at a title with 2 all-star teammates, and they won the title.

And then you have the Lakers. How many all-stars were on the Lakers roster when he joined? Zero. Now, they were able to add Anthony Davis, but I'm not sure how that's any different than the Bulls drafting Scottie Pippen and him growing into the role as the second best player on the team and one of the top 30 player all time.

And you're leaving out a key point in all of this, which is the number of all-stars playing for each opponent. Golden State had Steph, Klay, and Draymond for 2 years, and then added Durant for 2 more after that. San Antonio had Parker, Ginobili, and Duncan in 07, and then again in 2014 (albeit they were all exiting or outside of their prime), with the addition of an entering his prime Kawhi Leonard. And that doesn't even mention the guy who was coaching them, who I believe you've referred to as the best coach of all time?

How many times did Jordan's Finals opponents have 3 all stars who were smack dab in the middle of their prime? How many times did his Finals opponents have 4 all stars who were smack dab in the middle of their prime? The only two years where you can point to LeBron as having a more talented, better overall team than his opponent in the Finals are 2011, 2020, and maybe 2013. 2011 is an obvious blemish on his record, 2013 is debatable, and while 2020 can be pointed out, LeBron still only had 1 other "in his prime" all star teammate. There's a reason LeBron has only been favored in the Finals 3 times. He traditionally has come up against better top to bottom teams. Jordan was favored in all 6 of his Finals appearances.

 

Actually, I know the Bulls were not favored against the Suns and I'm not sure they were favored in their last series against the Jazz, either. The Suns team actually had six guys who were all-stars, too, and contributed.

Otherwise, you spend an awful lot of time unwinding an immense amount of bullshit to navigate your undying devotion to LeBron. His teammates weren't really that great or, if they were, they didn't "fit", or, they did fit, but others had better. It's exhaustively exhausting. So, a few points here:

- The Warriors weren't the best team ever assembled in 2017.
- Pippen was drafted and developed, Davis was an established star.
- Scottie was fantastic, but not top 30, all-time.
- Pop is a great coach, but Auerbach is probably better and the fact Pop's teams are just so-so the past three years tells the story of the need for talent above all in the NBA.
- Honing in on Miami is done because it was his best team and most successful time, obviously.

The best point you have is the concentration of stars on certain teams in the era of the superteam. Of course, that leaves a bunch of slop out there and where the weak east concept comes, so it's give and take. Other than this, I don't give a shit. It's still, clearly, Jordan, 1 and LeBron, 2.

 

Do you have any sources? I've seen multiple that state Jordan was favored in every single finals, though I'm unsure of the reliability of any of the sources.

There's no bullshit involved. It's just looking at the facts. 1 legitimate year with Kyrie in Cleveland. The 2017 Warriors were ab-so-[uck fay]ing-lutely the best team ever assembled in 2017. They took the team with the best regular season record in NBA history and added the second best player in the league. They swept the Blazers, the Jazz, the Spurs, and then dropped 1 game to the LeBron led Cavs. In the games they won, their avg margin of victory was 16 points. They were absolutely the best team ever assembled.

Again, I'm not sure what you think is the difference between a player being an established star and a player being drafted and developed into a star. They're both stars. If anything, playing with the drafted and developed star is easier because you build chemistry as he develops. The Lakers had to build their chemistry in a single season.

Scottie Pippen is 100% a top 30 player of all-time. How many reputable "all-time" lists do you need me to post for you to drop that ridiculous claim? Because I've looked at 5 or 6 at random so far, and every single one has him in the top 30, and most have him top 25.

Okay, so Pop is the second best coach ever (again, according to you). LeBron has had to face him (and top 10 all time player, Tim Duncan) in the finals 3 different times. Who's the best coach Jordan faced in a finals?

If we are going to claim the superteam era left a bunch of slop out there, are we also going to talk about the expansion teams that were added in the years immediately following both of Jordan's 3-peats? Or the shortening of the 3-point line?

 

Are you the kind of dude who thinks everything which happened within this generation is always the best? The best player. The best coach. The best team. Do you have any framework outside of the stuff you watched growing up?

-The Warriors were not the best team ever, or certainly not to the point where you can go "absolutely" about anything. They were very good, but the '96 Bulls were every bit as good (Best combined record, regular and postseason, in NBA history.). I might even throw in the 2001 Lakers and the 1986 Celtics or a couple of the Showtime Lakers teams.
-Pippen is a great player, but the times he wasn't around MJ he wasn't anything like a top 25 ever player. A lot of those list have him above players like Charles Barkley, which is bullshit, simply because he won titles with the Bulls.
-Jerry Sloan was probably the best coach in the Finals against Jordan, but he also had to get past Pat Riley in the East for a time. Both are in the HoF.
-The point about molding Pippen was that takes time, buying talent doesn't really. Talent wins out, nearly always. That's why Toronto can get Kawhi and win a title even if it seems completely magical to you to develop "chemistry" over the course of one season.

Seriously, I promise you there were players who existed before you starting watching the NBA on tv every bit as good as those playing now. Teams, too.

 

No, but go ahead and keep trying to discredit my stances in this manner, old dude. I pick my best coach (Phil Jackson) from the Bulls and Kobe/Shaq Lakers eras, not from the current era. I pick my best player (Goat James) from this era. My best team is from this era, but that's pretty straight forward. They won a title in 2015, set the regular season wins record in 2016, and then added the 2nd best player on the planet for 2017.

I give 0 [uck fay]s about combined regular and postseason record. I'm not sure why anyone would. The Warriors still had to take time to mesh as a team, and they learned the previous season not to focus so much on the regular season. You're out of your damn mind if you think anyone stands a chance against the 2017 or 2018 Warriors. The best 3 point shooter in history, maybe the 2nd best 3 point shooter in history, one of the most undefendable offensive players in history, and a number of excellent wing defenders. No one is beating either of those teams in a 7 game series.

Jerry Sloan is solid. I don't take him over Pop though, and I don't take either Malone or Stockton over Tim Duncan.

Well, yeah, it takes time to get to "championship caliber duo, though I'm not really sure why that matters. But the results began immediately. The were 1-9 in the playoffs the 3 years before Pippen. The first year with Pippen, they made it to the second round. The second year with him, when he really took a step forward, they made it to the conference Finals. They brought in Phil the next year, made the conference finals again, and in year 4 with Pippen, they won it all. Jordan didn't win shit until they added Phil and Pippen.

Toronto won a title because the Warriors lost both their best and 3rd best players to injury. Don't be foolish.

 

So, Toronto won because they had more talent on the floor. Exactly.

The Bulls record demonstrates their consistent dominance. The Bulls had 3 of the best wing defenders of their era, plus Rodman, who is what Draymond wishes he could be. They had THE greatest offensive weapon in history and Pippen would make it very difficult for Durant, as would Harper and Jordan on Thompson and Curry. The one weak point of the Bulls, Luc Longley, wouldn't be a much of an issue with the wesk interior og GS. Then there is Kukoc off the bench. Don't fool yourself, they are right there with the Warriors and match up quite well, strength on strength.

I also get the suspicion your denoting of Jackson is due to your desire to bring Jordan down a notch, but, ok.

 

They won because the other team was decimated with injuries. Talent gained via a trade is the exact same as talent drafted, once the latter hits the same career stage as the former. Scottie Pippen was incredibly talented during Jordan’s title runs, just as Davis was during this past season with LeBron.

I love your explanation of how so many different pieces besides MJ made the Bulls so dominant. But I disagree with you, wholeheartedly. The Bulls don’t have the scoring to keep up with that GS team. Can you imagine Steph and Klay shooting from the shorter 3 point line? It would be a cheat code. And the Warriors have like, 4 different excellent defenders to throw at Jordan. And if they played in this era, they could just throw that old triangle defense at him. You know, the one they applied to LeBron at the end of Game 1 in 2018?

You can be suspicious all you want. I pick Jackson because he has the most championships, a higher win percentage than the next few options, and a higher playoff win percentage than the next few options. Pretty straight forward.

 

No, different pieces in addition to the greatest player ever. I mean, did you think they had the greatest season in NBA history with only 2 guys? You are seriously underrating the Bulls perimeter defense and overrating a 3 point line about a foot and half closer. And, congratulations on having players to throw at Jordan. Worked like a charm when it happened in the 90s with the more physical defenses.

 

MJ was 31% from 3 in 91, 27% in 92, and .35% in 93. Can you tell me why he was 50%, 43%, and 37%, respectively, in 95, 96, and 97. So your stance is that a closer 3 point line can drastically change MJ's 3 point statistics but wouldn't substantially benefit the 2 best 3 point shooters of all time? Come on.

Who were the best defenders Jordan faced in the finals? Gary Payton, then who? Draymond, Iggy, and Klay would be among the best defenders Jordan saw and could all take turns wearing him down. And that doesn't even point out all the trouble Durant's length could cause. Also, again, if they're playing in the current era, other defensive tactics could be utilized to force the ball out of Jordan's hands. He would still get his, but not enough to keep up with the Warriors' offensive weapons, and the Bulls didn't have another guy who could step up to take on that bigger scoring load for an entire series. The Warriors had 3 guys who could drop 30 on any given night and no one would be surprised by it.

 

if we are playing todays game with moving picks and ridiculous non calls on carries/walks, as well as no hand checking, then yes the Warriors probably win. Its a video game league with 35 foot shots and no rebounders. Horrible true basketball at times and half ass defense, built by AAU. Eaten up by people who don't know what the game is supposed to look like.
In more physical 90s, with moving picks and travels not a big part of the game, Jordan doesn't lose. And Green on Jordan? Really. And i've said it before, Durant has never played a defender the way Scottie would play him and with the size, length, strength and effort. And Jordan's man won't have it easy, so then you have one 3 point shooter you will need to go off, in a game without moving picks and 4 step side shuffle uncle baby billy step back 3s.