1. One can't be anti-choice and then play this card. I'm not dictating to anyone what their options are. You are. What an incredibly hypocritical statement. 2. Without invoking "fate," "destiny," or time travel, there is no basis for calling something that is brain dead and never was anything else but brain dead a person. That is the problem with most all of the posts concerning whether a fetus is a person. It is tacitly assuming some sort of destiny that is obviously not there for every aborted fetus that ever has or will occur.
1. You seem to agree we shouldn't be killing fetuses at some point. All we are debating is the time. He hypocritical part is you calling me anti choice when we are simply debating when it's ok. Everyone is "anti-choice" once the kid comes out correct? Saying that I think that number is before it comes out of the vagina makes me anti choice? Absurd. It makes me a non insane person. Arguing it's ok to kill a fetus that can develop and live on it's own and has every characteristic of a newborn is just as fanatical as the most pro life people out there. 2. By your beliefs. That's all it is a belief. And btw I don't necessarily disagree with you. I do think the number is likely lower, but I'm not arrogant enough to tell you I know to the day when a fetus becomes human.
I am not a wise enough person to be able to declare when a human fetus is or is not a "person". The old pornography adage "I know it when I see it" seems to be the only answer, and it is not an answer. Therefore, I find it impossible not to hedge on the side of sliding the person scale back as far as possible to leave out any room for doubt. IP keeps talking about brain dead. A fetus, once its brain develops, is not brain dead. Tests for whether a human is brain dead involves autonomic responses such as pain reflexes. Fetuses respond in such ways. Not until the brain stem is dead will a doctor declare a patient is brain dead. A fetus' brain controls its heart, its intestines, its arm and leg movements just fine. It is not brain dead. Is it conscious? Of course not, but I argue a four month old baby is not conscious. No memories are made, there is no self awareness. Again, I am not wise enough to make this call, just like I am not wise enough to be able to put a criminal to death. And because of that, I must morally side with the unborn human, as they have no say in the matter. And thus we must speak up for them. That said, after doing some research, 95% of all abortions are done during the first trimester. So why waste all this time? I believe even if there was only one murder in the entire world per year, it should still be against the law. The argument that people will get abortions even if it is against the law is equally ludicrous, as people commit murder, why not set up kill centers so I can murder you cleanly in a nice environment? It is about individual rights, and once you allow a pregnancy to go so far, you have made your choice. Now you must live with the consequences of that choice.
1. You can't be reading my posts. 2. Can't wait to sue someone for stealing the money I could have made.
1. why bring up the 25 week situation at all if it isn't relevant to your nebulous idea of "personhood?" 2. not following you
1. I was attempting to constrain the discussion. I am saying it isn't even physically possible for a fetus to be a person before 25 weeks, any more than for a tree to talk. Your own article mentioned the portion of the brain associated with what we would consider "mental functions" doesn't come on line until the very end of gestation. 2. We have entered into the realm of hypothetical future crimes, since because a fetus could develop normally, it has the standing of a person. An egg is now a rooster.
1. when pulling the plug on a brain dead person the standard used consistently in every living will is without the possibility of recovery. No one would pull the plug if they knew simply weeks later that person's brain function would come to life. 2. I'm talking about fetus' that have already developed. as I said before my twins could have survived without serious medical intervention 5 weeks premature. no hypothetical statements needed. and if you include those that need high end medical attention we can go many weeks before that. by float's theory it should a ok to kill them simply because they haven't passed through the mothers vagina.
VolDad, if there were no indications of your wife's pregnancy going wrong, would you have been ok with her having an abortion?
I ask because it seems so often we lose sight of what is happening. It's easy to say these things when it applies to someone else, but what if it had been your son or daughter?
I would weight the options, and hope it would be a difficult decision. But in the end, we would make the best decision for us. I would hope, very much, that I had more time than a day. 25 weeks is a hell of a thing. But if an abnormality was considered at week 23, then a test ran, with the results back at 24, with a decision whether to operate made the next day, so as to schedule the procedure before the 25th week (or whatever random time chosen), well... so much for weighing the options. Anyone got any questions for me? Been in and out with no time to respond. Links back are fine, or just "see two pages ago." Otherwise, I'll just lurk the thread until I see my signal.
Her body; her choice. Someone once told me that your child is the only person that you have instant unconditional Love for. This turned out to be true the moment I saw him. However I don't remember that emotional connection until then.