Santorum: If abortion becomes illegal, doctors should face criminal charges

i'm not sure how anyone who has actually gone through the pregnancy process and seen the baby develop could be in favor of abortions beening legal past say 3 months. and i'm agnostic. if you can't figure it out by then. tough shit.

 

Pro-abortion means in favor of abortion in the context I was using it - not saying people want more of them (although I guess there are some eugenics folks that might)

The walnut analogy is off because one walnut is not akin to a slew of trees (deforestation) and neither has rights.

A fetus is life and can be viable shortly into it's development. It's not fun to think of but if you don't think aborting a 4+ month old fetus is killing a life then I don't know what to say.

That said, I'm not necessarily anti-abortion and I'm not advocating making abortion illegal.

Along the lines of Beech's comments, I think we've created a system where people can cavalierly abort a fetus because a kid just doesn't fit their lifestyle. The rape and medical condition of the mother represent true "rights of one vs another" dilemmas but the 20 year old that gets pregnant by not protecting herself and decides a baby would be inconvenient seems like a poor reason to end a life.

 

I agree with Droski - a few months in; looking at ultrasounds; it's a life - it just isn't a person yet.

On the argument that it's better for an unwanted child to be aborted than live with parent(s) that don't want it of for it to be a ward of the state; I'm not at all comfortable with this logic. It's akin to saying a retarded kid isn't going to have a good life so let's put him out of his misery.

For me it's a balancing of rights. The woman has rights and we consider that they trump the rights of the fetus since it is not a person. I can understand that but it sure does make me uncomfortable.

 

The overwhelming majority of abortions in the United States occur before 4 months. I think that is certainly a reasonable time.

Again, the term "life" keeps getting used as if it is beyond reproach. Living tissue does not equate to life.

As far as comparing aborting a fetus that will be unwanted or have a hard life to killing a retarded child: there is a big difference between a born existing human and tissue that may become a human.

 

And I am curious as to what rights a person who doesn't yet exist has, and where I can find them?

 

yes, but is even a newborn a "human" per se? i'm not sure why the umbilical cord getting cuts all of a sudden makes the kid human either. they still cannot survive by themselves, generally don't do anything but shit and eat, etc. all i know when i start seeing noticable fingers, brain stem, seeing a heartbeat, a [penis], etc, it's hard for me to not think this is a human. as to when that time happens i have no idea. but i can safetly say that late term abortions are an abomination.

 

yup.

 

I agree that late term abortions are horrific. The vast majority of people do. That doesn't mean we should color all possible abortions the same as that.

 

oh i 100% agree. it seems both sides do this. ask a pro lifer and you can't abort fetuses that are so unhealthy they probably miscarriage anyway. ask a pro choice and they'll argue a woman can do whatever they want until it's out of her vagina.

 

The point is there is no scientific nor moral agreement when it's life and when it's not. As Droski says, fingers, toes, brain stem, heartbeat - you have to acknowledge that is human life. I don't see any science that says the brain just starts working at birth.

It's a moral dilemma in my view (and not necessarily a religious one; to me they are distinct issues).

 

My wife is pregnant with our daughter. I am married but it was very, very much unplanned- I think the father should have just as much say as to whether or not his child's life is aborted. It would kill me to think my wife, or mother of my child would have 100% autonomy over my child's life and me having no say.

 

I do get the point, but why is that the best solution?

 

Totally agree- not that I have ever been "pro-abortion" but with my wife currently pregnant it very much changes things.

 

It would kill me too, but that is the way it is. Her body is the vessel, not yours. One of the only down-sides of being a dude. We are reproductive gimps. This reality has defined gender relations for all of human history. This is why women have always been made to be subservient or dominated in Western culture until recently, and in many cultures even still.

 

I don't have to acknowledge anything. HA! Seriously, you say human life. I see living human tissue for the most part. At what time that becomes a person, I can't say. I do agree it is a perfect moral dilemma with no answer in sight. That is why I think the moral hazard is the potential mother's, not the state's.

 

my brother had a hookup with an ex gf who said she was on the pill and she got pregnant and had the kid. i'm 100% positive she did it intentionally. my old roommate pulled a similar stunt on her bf and basically admitted as such to me (guy was an heir to a huge fortune). seems like there should be some fathers rights at least monetarily. yes they did the dead, but it does seem unfair that the woman has the 100% right to chose whether you will pay up the arse for 18 years or whether you will not have a child.

 

Anyone ever see the Politically Incorrect Private Investigator (PI PI) skit on SNL?

 

I'm not that smart of a guy but for me the second I found out my wife was pregnant, at 8 weeks, that was my baby and a (developing) life inside of her. When I saw the ultrasound at 8 weeks, it was more than living tissue.

Again, as soon as I found out my wife was pregnant that person existed. If we lost the baby, fetus, developing life or whatever you want to call it at say 12 weeks it would have been devastating and more than losing some living tissue that doesn't exist yet.

 

Why? I only have rights to my child once it pops out of the vag? I feel there are a lot of double standards.

 

I think the Roe v. Wade decision brings about a host of legal questions that I and I am sure many others would have as a result of it. But the legal issue is an aside.

I have to agree with JZ. As father of one and another on the way, the first time you hear the heartbeat or see that four-chamber heart pump I am not sure how someone could go through that procedure without thinking the inevitable what ifs of that life to come.