The Malice In The Palace: Redux.

Discussion in 'The Thunderdome' started by hatvol96, Mar 1, 2012.

  1. hatvol96

    hatvol96 Well-Known Member

    I highly recommend the oral history of the 2004 Pacers-Pistons brawl over at Grantland.com. I've always found that incident to be a Rorschach test. Once I hear a person's views on the events of that evening, I generally have a good idea of what I think of them.
     
  2. JohnnyQuickkick

    JohnnyQuickkick Great Man

    I just remember that being about the last time I was entertained by the NBA, haha.
     
  3. volfanjo

    volfanjo Chieftain

    I thought then and think now it says more about the fans than the players. I'm not sure your thoughts.

    Interesting read. I think KO was in the building that night too.
     
  4. JohnnyQuickkick

    JohnnyQuickkick Great Man

    Just read the article, man, what a crazy story.
     
  5. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    When you throw something into the area of play, especially onto a person, you cease being a spectator. The folks in the stands deserved to get popped.
     
  6. hatvol96

    hatvol96 Well-Known Member

    My thoughts:
    1. Ron Artest is a crazy person who exercised judgment commensurate with that.
    2. I'll take Stephen Jackson, Jamaal Tinsley, and Jermaine O'Neal in my foxhole anytime.
    3. Ben Wallace was 95% responsible for that mess and got a free pass.
    4. The incident allowed the closet bigots in the sports media the ammunition to toss out thinly veiled racism and call it commentary.
    5. The actions of Rasheed Wallace and Derrick Coleman kept the fracas from becoming a full scale riot. That should show the danger of making guys into caricatures instead of looking at who they really are.
    6. William Wesley is literally everywhere.
    7. Tom Wilson and the rest of Pistons management are spineless weasels who continue to pretend as if their franchise was a victim in this incident.
    8. Jermaine O'Neal was a wet spot on the floor from decapitating an idiot fan with a punch on national TV. Had he connected cleanly, it would have made Kermit Washington's shot on Rudy T look like a love tap.
    9, This may be the only subject in the world that I am substantially in agreement with Jim Gray on.
    10. Mike Brown is a better scapper than he is a basketball coach.
     
  7. kidbourbon

    kidbourbon Well-Known Member

  8. JohnnyQuickkick

    JohnnyQuickkick Great Man

    2. I thought O'Neal and Jackson both came across pretty well, reading that. Hard to blame them, as fast as that escalated.
    3. I lost the narrative on Wallace after the foul incident, unless i missed something it seemed to me the idiot fans were the reason that went from an on-court deal to total chaos.
    5. I was surprised reading what was said about Rasheed Wallace, because pretty much all I know about him is the temper and the technicals and all, and I think it just illustrates how dumb it is to totally judge a guy by something like technical fouls.
    6. No joke.
    10. Hard to believe he got the LAKERS JOB.

    I wasn't ever above yelling some (so I thought) witty banter at an opposing player but I just can't fathom behaving like some of those fans did. I guess I'm fortunate that I'm more of a laid-back cool personality (to my detriment sometimes). Just seems so foreign to me, not to mention what a dumb idea it would be for 5'9 175 lb me to go after somebody like Jermaine O'Neal. Very fortunate that he slipped, because that would've been a complete disaster.
     
  9. kidbourbon

    kidbourbon Well-Known Member

    I always thought Stephen Jackson was the worst offender. At least Artest had an objective. Jackson went into the stands and seemingly started unleashing punches on whoever he crossed paths with.

    I don't know how Ben Wallace receives 95% credit for the events that followed. What Wallace did happens on a basketball court all the time. Mere "but for" causation isn't appropriate in that event because of the myriad number of events that qualify as "but for" causation.

    I'm a big fan of Rasheed Wallace. He's actually a really bright dude.
     
  10. hatvol96

    hatvol96 Well-Known Member

    If Stephen Jackson, as the guy closest to the Artest fray had reacted any differently, I'd have zero respect for him.

    Ben Wallace went on for over two minutes dancing around and trying to bait a fight. If he simply leaves the floor, nothing else ever happens. He is, was, and always will be a lousy guy and a player who has stolen NBA money for many years. White America gives his dumb ass a pass because he occasionally runs around looking like Buckwheat on HGH.
     
  11. kidbourbon

    kidbourbon Well-Known Member

    And Jackson wasn't trying to bait a fight?
     
  12. kidbourbon

    kidbourbon Well-Known Member

    Jackson: I was in fight mode at the time. I'm like, "Y'all being real disrespectful, man. We're trying to break this up. So if y'all wanna fight, I'll give you what you're looking for." It was just a whole bunch of noise, just trash talk.8

    Hunter: In a situation like that, you want to protect your teammates and yourself. I'm looking to make sure nobody's going to hit anybody from behind. I just remember kind of smirking, like, "Jacko, you know you don't want to fight in front of all these people." And we kind of squared off and looked at each other and it didn't escalate into anything. People don't know that Rip is a fierce competitor and Rip just goes over the top, man. He was real emotional.

    Jackson: Me and Rip are close buddies, real good friends. But at the time, the emotions were so high. They were upset 'cuz they were getting dragged. We were beating them by [15 points]. They were real upset, so they were kind of egging it on like they wanted it. So I said at that time, "If you want it, you can get it."
     
  13. hatvol96

    hatvol96 Well-Known Member

    If Ben Wallace leaves when he gets ejected, Jackson and Rip Hamilton never start jawing at each other.
     
  14. kidbourbon

    kidbourbon Well-Known Member

    I agree, but there are ton of things that would have prevented the situation from escalating had they happened. And, yes, I think Wallace gets credit for starting things, but I don't believe that puts the responsibility for all the ensuing events on him.
     
  15. justingroves

    justingroves supermod

    Me too. The fans acted like complete idiots and Ron Artest is literally a crazy person.
     
  16. ncmedicman

    ncmedicman Member

    Overall, probably just a perfect storm of tenuously related events that escalated into the brawl. Artest, while definitely crazy, wasn't completely in the wrong for going into the stands. Those fans (the ones actively throwing objects, grabbing players/coaches, instigating physicality, etc.) interjected themselves into the situation, thus had to be prepared to get what was coming to them. Stephen Jackson, while a loose cannon, has a rep in the league of being a great teammate, and I feel it was in the "defense of a teammate" that caused him to enter the stands. Him jawing with Hamilton and Hunter is nothing that doesn't happen on a nightly basis. When the Haddadd character came at Artest and O'Neal, he invited an ass kicking. As a general statement, when you have mass gatherings of people + alcohol, you should probably have enough security (true security, not grandpa with a flashlight and rape whistle) to handle all but the most unlikely of scenarios, so the Pistons/Palace have blame here as well. But, the initial spark for the whole incident was the physicality of the game and how it was playing out. Donaghy probably had a financial stake in the outcome, so his opinion on the matter carries no weight with me. The refs should have gotten the game under control before things got so out of hand.
     
  17. Unimane

    Unimane Kill "The Caucasian"

    Shockingly, I agree 100% on everything. I was even hoping that the fans who were dumping beer over the rails were pulled into the concourse and beaten by the players for being cowards who thought they had a buffer from being accountable for their actions.

    I especially agree with number 4 and that goes in general with a lot of things relating to the NBA. People nowadays try to mask their racist ideology through code words and ideas and the NBA is one of the significant methods of expressing those attitudes. I hear shit about NBA players that are no big deals or exaggerated because they are tattooed black men instead of middle sized white boys on skates.
     
  18. Unimane

    Unimane Kill "The Caucasian"

    Shockingly, I agree 100% on everything. I was even hoping that the fans who were dumping beer over the rails were pulled into the concourse and beaten by the players for being cowards who thought they had a buffer from being accountable for their actions.

    I especially agree with number 4 and that goes in general with a lot of things relating to the NBA. People nowadays try to mask their racist ideology through code words and ideas and the NBA is one of the significant methods of expressing those attitudes. I hear shit about NBA players that are no big deals or exaggerated because they are tattooed black men instead of middle sized white boys on skates.
     
  19. MaconVol

    MaconVol Chieftain

    I could not agree with the bold anymore than I do. I thought when it happened if he had hit him, he would not have woke up until 2010.
     
  20. MaconVol

    MaconVol Chieftain

    On a side note, trying to find video of this is like trying to break into the White Hose. It can't be done.
     

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