COVID-19 (artist formerly known as Wuhan strain novel Corona virus)

No. That's not what I asked.

You're answering questions that haven't been asked and throwing out a number that has no real bearing on what's actually being discussed. If you're going to waste everyone's time, why stop at the body count? If you want to answer the question no one asked about how many people have been affected, you should gives us the global case number.

 

Well, yeah, the number exists. Maybe I could have used better wording there. I'm not questioning whether it exists. I'm questioning whether a physical recording of that number exists. You seem to be telling me it doesn't.

Can you link me to the projections? Seems like if we bothered to make projections, we'd be tracking that actuals in some form or fashion. Otherwise, what's the point? Is there any data at all that can be extrapolated across the rest of the population?

 

But the unnecessary deaths are really your best argument. Unless you're going to tell me that a cancelled Garth Brooks concert and a temporary EU travel ban outweigh the unnecessary deaths? I guess what I'm getting at is that all of this stuff moves the needle to some degree, and the unnecessary deaths are the biggest needle mover. The "totality of everything else" doesn't carry more weight than the unnecessary deaths.

 

That is one persons opinion. Another might be that the abuse and PTSD being inflicted on healthcare workings causing lasting effects should be the needle mover. Another might be that having to wait hours and hours after calling an ambulance for an emergency because of the unvaccinated should be a needle mover. For others it is the totality of all effects, etc.

 

Studies on this from the beginning, as ICU capacity has always been associated with patient mortality even pre-COVID. At least thousands have died due to this.

https://www.journalofhospitalmedici...s-hospital-resource-availability-and-covid-19

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/02/210202164502.htm

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.21.20074732v1

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/13/22224445/covid-19-deaths-in-us-hospital-beds-icu

https://www.washington.edu/news/202...e-curve-may-kill-more-people-than-we-thought/

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/08/27/alabama-hospital-crisis-intensifies-66-now-waiting-icu-beds/

https://healthmanagement.org/c/icu/issuearticle/shortage-of-icu-beds-leads-to-patient-deaths

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19s-other-unnecessary-death-toll/

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-a...cle_20343334-119f-11ec-a91e-7bea4e7042e8.html

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...-surges-us-hospitals-may-have-led-6000-deaths

https://apnews.com/article/business...rus-pandemic-c053fae3d462705c39e3ffcd612d8a50

https://www.jpost.com/health-scienc...-19-due-to-hospital-overcrowding-study-663429

https://kutv.com/news/local/after-w...d-patient-dies-from-heart-attack-complication

https://abc7.com/us-army-veteran-daniel-wilkinson-michelle-puget-man-dies-waiting-icu/10987517/

https://www.insider.com/kansas-man-dies-icu-unites-full-due-to-covid-19-2021-8

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-near-you.html

 

note: The "you" below is the general you, not anyone in specific.

1) No one is going to come into your house and force you get a vaccine.
2) Even if this mandate goes forward, you can always quit your job and find one at a mom-and-pop joint if it is that important to you.
3) Sometimes, and rarely, the government has to step in when the populace is being too stupid.
4) Smoking bans, helmet laws, seat belt laws, all traffic laws, USDA regulations, FDA regulations, OSHA, etc are done for the greater good, because these things affect you and me even when we are not involved. You not getting a vaccine and walking around in public affects me.
5) If my kids wanted to go to a public school, they had to get vaccinated for all kinds of things.

A little short quip written 200 years ago by some pretty smart people:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Promote the general Welfare. This is so often overlooked, wedged in between common defense and securing the Blessings of Liberty as it is.

Do I want a mandate for vaccinations? No, I don't. It is the last effort that should be used. But we are coming up on 2 years of this damn thing, and half the people in this country are still too stupid or too scared to do the right thing that it is vexing to me. And when people are too stupid or too scared to do something that is right, the government sometimes, and very hesitantly, needs to step in. It sucks, I hate it, and I am not even 100% convinced it is the right thing to do.

But dammit, something has to be done.

 

How many users and how many years and how many cumulative "user years" will be enough to make the vaccine be safe for holdouts? I only ask because the population of the US was like 80 million in 1905, so we have already administered 4 times as many doses of vaccine for COVID than they did for smallpox. The data is in. It's safe.

 

Staff, they're having to hire traveling nurses and pull people out of retirement to keep up with patients.

 

For perspective, some places are at 200% or more of normal capacity. So they need double the staff. This is assuming they are able to make more beds.

 

I'm 5 articles in, and none have addressed what we are talking about. Do any of the remaining articles address it?

• We aren't really talking about patients who die from Covid as a result of no beds being available. The vast majority of people dying of Covid at this point are unvaccinated, and I think most if not all people in this thread agree that those people have made their beds and have to lay in them.
  
  
• Projections about overwhelming hospitals prior to the vaccines don't really help us with projections post vaccines.

I get that we are talking about something very, very specific here, so the numbers and what not may just not be out there for consumption. It's even further challenged by the fact that it's difficult to predict what "could have" or "would have" happened vs. what did happen. One of the later articles (3rd to last, I think) talks about a woman waiting 2.5 hours for a bed and dying from complications a day (or days?) later. The sister makes the claim that she'd still be alive if not for that wait, but there's no doctor confirming that. For all we know, she dies anyway. So I get that it's challenging to track.

 

lol

 

What is a solid answer? It's a bounded unknown, greater than 0 and less then the sum of all non-COVID deaths.

 

Initially, I was trying to ascertain whether Indy was purposely obtuse, hopelessly naive or just an interwebz azzhole whose life revolves around post counts/ responses.

I realized, IDGAS.

Errbody needs to STFU; quit whining and whinging; making excuses; pretending to be intellectually superior in their defense of these selfish azzholes; and get the [uck fay]ing shot.

If they must be made to do it, so be it. I don't care what they think. There is a reason these dumbazzes never got smallpox or polio, etc.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

You're labeling every person who hasn't gotten the vaccine as a "selfish asshole," but I'm the one who is obtuse, naive, and an interwebz asshole?

 

Yep.

 

An argument can be made that it is similar to Total 2020 + 2021 US deaths per million - (Average annual US deaths per million for 2009-2019 x 2) - all known COVID deaths 2020+2021 per million. The margin of error would mostly be uncounted/undiagnosed COVID deaths, which doesn't undermine the underlying premise: get vaccinated.

If rates from January to October of 2020 are representative (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm), excess deaths due to issues relating to resources/limited treatment options for nonCOVID OR undiagnosed COVID are about 33% of the known COVID deaths. This would be well over 200,000 deaths so far beyond counted COVID deaths that are related to the effects of the health crisis and not included in the COVID death total in the US..

 

Cool. I'm sure you've spent a ton of time trying to understand those people and their reasoning for why they've made the decisions they've made.

 

People medically ineligible for the vaccine know he isn't talking to them.