School Voucher Study - "Results...the worst ever in field"

My kids would choose to be raised by wolves, if this were to come to pass.

 

I think that private schools are better than most public schools, in general. But, you flood the market with vouchers, you are going to set up a system where there are a ton of shady schools started up to leech that sweet, sweet government money from people that might not know better. Private schools are good now, because most families that send their kids to the schools expect certain things and probably do more research into it.

You give me a voucher, and I know nothing about schools or anything like that, I might find a local private school that sucks nuts because they are just trying to scam me out of my money before closing the school in 2 years.

That is my worry.

 

Well your premise on the abortion one is a verifiable lie. Whoever told you that isn't being honest. Universally? Uh, no.

 

Here's the line - please point out the "verifiable lie"

 

I think it's more likely you'll see the people who dont' give a shit still sending their kids to the same school (nothing is easier than doing nothing right?) and those school will get even shittier because all the parents who gave a shit are going elsewhere along with the funding. my $.02

 

Yep

 

The whole thing is a lie, because it is a manipulation. It doesn't have to be untrue to be a lie, if it deceives.


And it deceives simply by replacing "abortion" with "having a baby." There isn't a distinction actually being drawn.

 

It's a little complicated and based upon the type of school we're talking about. Schools, including private schools, have accreditation processes they follow. Here's the basic guidelines. https://www.tn.gov/education/article/non-public-school-categories

However, most non-public schools do not have to take the standardized testing, though some do anyway, and, obviously, they take the ACT/SAT tests for college.

https://www.tn.gov/education/article/non-public-school-categories

 

So in the example provided an I wrong in thinking there's a distinct possibility that the percentiles for public vs. private are for different groups of people and different tests. Honesty I'm not trying to lead you anywhere here, given what little I know I'm inclined to agree with you on the voucher issue, I just saw those stats and wondered about there usefulness and a possible lack of comparability.

 

Why should someone have to pay for their child's education twice though if they want to go the private route.

Once their child is out of school, their tax dollars will go back to the public school system.

 

Your examples are all ridiculous. I'm not advocating that choice is removed, just that I'm not paying for your choice because the service I already pay for is not deemed good enough for you. If you don't like your electric service, should I be then required to chip in for your generator? Examples like the abortion one you use are silly because I'm not advocating that you can't get an education (which would be the corollary, but that getting one is available and provided for you free of cost).

You also missed the point about private school education. Do private schools, in general, have higher test scores and rates of academic achievement? Yes, but the rub is why and that why leads to the why vouchers, ultimately, won't be successful. If private schools are "better", then you should be able to take a kid out of the public school system and have the magic of the private school create a better and more accomplished student. In reality, with a private school you aren't paying for the education, you are paying for the environment and being surrounded by other types of like-minded students. Furthermore, this study suggests that private schools aren't as equipped to deal with the types of populations that public schools regularly receives and that the stated solution the voucher system is intended to achieve is flawed.

Like I said, I've been in education enough to see a thousand different "solutions" that all, generally, play out the same way because they address symptoms rather than flaws. But, this incarnation of outsider solutions is the worst because it's now funneling money elsewhere, thinning the resources and creating pyramid scheme scams among private interests.

 

Because you benefit from an educated society every time you go to the dentist, doctor, hire an employee, etc., etc. by needing and using services of people whose skills were acquired in public education.

 

I would imagine that a study would have a similar control for measuring each group. Also, one could argue that testing is not the only way, or even best way, to measure educational success or improvement. So, there's that, too.

 

That doesn't address what I asked. Once their child is out the money would be back into the public fund, why should they pay double

 

What? You jest. Words have meaning. I didn't say "have a baby" (although that works, too) - because I didn't mean "have a baby", I said "have an abortion" because I meant, "have an abortion".

Un has expressed strong support for each of these three choice-based scenarios in the past....that being the point, and all.

That you seemed to have misread some negatively intended connotation is your own mistake, because absolutely there is none there, either expressly or inferred. And the use of that example is no more "manipulation" for or against abortion, than it was a Rock the Vote PSA, or an after-school special on free speech.

So, swing hard and miss again - here is the exact quote, please point out the lie, real or implied:

 

"Your examples are all ridiculous."
Which specific parts?

"I'm not advocating that choice is removed.."
We agree, choice is good, even for school vouchers.

"I'm not paying for your choice because the service I already pay for is not deemed good enough for you"
Great news! You won't be. School vouchers will be funded by the same tax dollars that you, and everyone else, has already paid. It simply allows parents to decide where those dollars are spent. Is that the part you disagree with?

"Examples like the abortion one you use are silly because I'm not advocating that you can't get an education"
No, you're advocating that all parents shouldn't be able to choose how their child is educated (except for the really wealthy ones, who can afford it, oddly enough....but we can tackle that later) - you don't want them to have a choice, just like you rail against people who say that women shouldn't have a choice in whether or not to have an abortion. "You" have become "they" on this issue - don't you see that?

"Do private schools, in general, have higher test scores and rates of academic achievement? Yes.."
I'm glad that we can agree that the silly premise of the thread, that public schools are just as good, or can consistently produce equally superior results as private schools, to bed as being refuted.

"If private schools are "better", then you should be able to take a kid out of the public school system and have the magic of the private school create a better and more accomplished student."
Here's the beauty of choice, Un - you can take your kid out of public school, and you can place them in private school....you don't have to do anything, but you can, if you want. If you think public schools are best for your kid, leave them there. Lots and lots of parents will do exactly this, and that's perfectly ok. It should also be ok to move to, if you choose.

"In reality, with a private school you aren't paying for the education, you are paying for the environment and being surrounded by other types of like-minded students."
How, exactly, is this terrible? Hell, how is it even troubling?

"Furthermore, this study suggests that private schools aren't as equipped to deal with the types of populations that public schools regularly receives and that the stated solution the voucher system is intended to achieve is flawed."
Perhaps they don't exist because there has never been enough money to form, build and finance a school that is intended to deal with the "types of populations". You'll have to better define "types of populations" before I can get any more specific than that.

 

Tenny (My quote function is not working, though it may just be my computer), the abortion comparison is poor because I'm not advocating the denial of either, only that it's a matter of paying for it. Are we on the hook, as taxpayers, for abortions performed? As it stands, I'm not in favor of policies that are designed to defund public education.

You also miss the point of public vs. private education quality. Per your idea that private schools are inherently better because they are private schools, then, it would be assumed, that kids getting a voucher would be more successful in a private school setting. This study says no, and quite the opposite, at that. Parents can take their kids out of public school at any point they choose and put them in private schools, if they choose.

The "types of poulations" is a general reference to the type of student that does not typically attend private school, i.e. ones of a lower economic status, non-white, unstable homes and includes special education students, ELL students and those with learning disabilities. The paying for "the environment and like minded students" is a reference to the point that private schools mean you are paying for avoiding the "riff raff" of the public schools, as they can't turn away anyone. The problem is that this issue won't be solved by vouchers, as anyone now can go to a private school (and public schools could easily be improved, in my opinion, but that's another discussion), removing the one great divider of private school, selectivity.

 

Tenny, are you advocating for tax deductible abortions? Or just making up arguments with emotional hooks and triggers?

 

Is tax deductible for both parties?

 

Words actually have many meanings. But, if you want to use lie as one way over another, then please point out the lie, real or implied, in the following: