Global Warming

Discussion in 'The Thunderdome' started by kptvol, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    We've talked about this before. I am pro grazing and anti-feed lot. But it is a thread we must tug on with a steady hand. The US finds itself in the driver's seat of a world food market, which is a lot of responsibility.
  2. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    Add to this the cost drop in offshore wind within mature markets, and you can see that the US has a lot of untapped potential there as well.
  3. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    I agree. Problems are being solved. National air quality has greatly improved over the last decade due to natural gas, and will further improve over the next 10 years as natural gas is complimented further with onshore wind and to a lesser extent solar. And this isn't just due to subsidies.

    I hear a lot about how renewables drive up energy costs for the consumer. That can be true, but they also can control volatility and provide energy security, while still maturing as a technology. There are some benefits that don't necessarily show up in cost. And I don't even have to talk about emissions and climate change.
  4. TennTradition

    TennTradition Super Moderator

    Yes - you have to grow intermittent renewables according to a plan or you could drive costs up. But, as long as you don't let them get to large as a percentage (in the absence of storage) then they can have a favorable impact on cost.

    These new gas battery hybrid plants are pretty cool as well.
  5. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    There are some plans discussed her in VA to turn empty coal mines into water storage facilities, using renewables to pump water up into storage and releasing it when needed to generate hydro. Not something that could be set up anywhere and not technologically fancy, but that is the kind of thinking that can provide small amounts of storage while more robust and replicable storage technology is being developed.
  6. TennTradition

    TennTradition Super Moderator

  7. lumberjack4

    lumberjack4 Chieftain

    That's true that the sun is always shining somewhere but it's of no use if the sin isn't shining where you need it. We still lose a lot of energy in transit and storage is still an issue today. I think at some point you have to have manufacturable energy that you can turn on on demand.

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  8. lumberjack4

    lumberjack4 Chieftain

    That's interesting ill have to take some time to check it that link. At what point can we eliminate the energy subsidies?

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  9. TennTradition

    TennTradition Super Moderator

    I'd say you'll see them erode on wind over the next 5 years.
  10. gcbvol

    gcbvol Fabulous Moderator

    Great conversation and learning in this thread. Thanks, gents. I think we're finally taking the solar plunge. The price has come down significantly the past few years and now we can get a powerwall which provides an inverter and modest storage capability. It makes too much sense.
  11. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    Some (Musk, for one) say that if you took out the subsidies on fossil fuels, you could remove the subsidies on renewables right now. But you will not see the subsidies on fossil fuels budge under the current administration. Onshore wind could probably stand on its own at this point. Solar could in states with clean power plans, and has really beaten cost forcasts over the last year or two. Offshore needs help to get started because there is no existing supply chain on this side of the Atlantic. Keep in mind Europe runs their grid off offshore and onshore wind (practically), but it takes investment to get there. A 100% renewable future is almost a present in parts of Europe.

    Also, China has more solar and wind than we do. The US is way behind on renewables among developed peer countries. Mostly because we don't like the idea of public investment anymore (unlike in the 30's-70's which led to the American century).
  12. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    If the storage situation is figured out, solar and wind will run the show.
  13. NorrisAlan

    NorrisAlan Put Custom Title Here

    Is this where the Gigafactory can come in?
  14. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    And there ways to do that with hydro and storage. meanwhile, gas still exists.

    Nuclear does NOT fit the mold of energy on demand. It isn't cost-effective to be ramping it up and down.
  15. TennTradition

    TennTradition Super Moderator

    What do the gas subsidies look like?
  16. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    There are material supply issues with gigafactory being a single solution for all storage needs. It could be/will be part of it. There are a lot of rare earth metals and other materials that go into wind turbines, solar panels, and traditional batteries. At a certain point, demand for them is going to play a big role in cost. There is some recent and exciting alternative materials for solar panels, but all the demand for lithium-ion batteries of all kinds makes large scale battery banks all over the world seem difficult.

    But we need examples of storage on the grid to better understand how they can interact within the grid, so I am all for them being explored. The big solutions will probably be something else.
  17. Volst53

    Volst53 Super Moderator

    TT what about geothermal around yellow stone park.

    Also what about tidal wave power.
  18. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    Very large tax breaks, for one:

    Which was more appropriate before fracking. Now they're artificially lowering the price of gas. Again, not the worst thing in the world, but negates coal's subsidies and generally just means fossil fuel developers don't pay very much tax. It also exceeds the total subsidies of each category of renewables. So when people talk about the subsidies renewables get... it doesn't make a lot of sense if what they really care about is just subsidies.
  19. IP

    IP Advanced Pruitt Apologetics Bot

    Not TT, so take it for what it is worth, but:

    Geothermal doesn't seem to be widely applicable in a cost-effective manner. A lot of these renewable energy generation costs are figured with a supply chain needing to be developed to lower prices in the future. I don't know a lot about geothermal.

    I know something about tidal power and wave power (two separate things). Tidal has real potential but again is only really applicable in specific settings. Further, those settings are going to have a lot of stakeholders (fishermen, vessel traffic, wildlife, etc) that will be potentially negatively affected. NIMBY.

    Wave power still hasn't coalesced around a best concept for how to generate power. The DOE held a competition last year with a million dollar prize, and a couple of engineers out of Maryland came up with something interesting that doubled the previous best but still isn't really commercially viable. The DOD has interest in investigating this further however, as being able to deploy things at remote installations or at sea is an intriguing possibility. One of the strategies being worked on in many places is combining solar, wind, and wave onto single platforms. Simply, it has the most in common with offshore wind, but just isn't as developed as wind. Right now there is no reason to build a large scale wave power installation over an offshore wind installation. Especially with the rise of floating wind turbines right now.

    Some of these offshore renewables get more scrutiny and litigation than any nuclear or coal plant proposal. Partly because affluent people tend to live near good places for renewables, and not near where nuclear and coal plants get proposed.
  20. kptvol

    kptvol Super Moderator

    If you're going to continue posting like this, you could perhaps cut out the constant accusations that everyone else has changed since Trump.

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