Happy Birthday, America!

Discussion in 'The Thunderdome' started by NorrisAlan, Jul 4, 2021.

  1. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    I'm having to sit and ponder why [uck fay]ing fireworks access is so important to you, but have not heard you say much in terms of health care access, voting access, or any number of real inequality issues... But fireworks. The [uck fay]ing fireworks.
     
  2. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    At 25%, a 150k deposit would be $37,500. Which would mean that Balitmore has spent, in your life time, 12,000,000 - 37500 = X. Solve x, moron.

    A person who lets anything else determine influence their decision is just a sheep being herded. You want to be herded. I get that. It isn't idiotic to say that herds of sheep being herded are herds of sheep.

    If government doesn't have a fireworks show, you going to see one elsewhere wasn't driven by government. It was driven by your desire to see one. All you were were inconvenienced. Not driven.
     
  3. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Fireworks... and a parade... and bands...

    It also talked about the various ways in which they worked to fund the show. Selling tickets, donations, etc. I'm sure a lot of large and large-ish cities secure corporate sponsorships as well.

    I saw an RFP for the 2018 show in Baltimore with a budget of $70,000. And it specifically included security and suggested that fund raising and donations would likely impact the final cost.
     
  4. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Why can't you get past the time associated with the fireworks? You act as if people wait until the time of the show, teleport to it, watch half of it, enjoy 20% of what they watch, and then immediately teleport home when it finishes. Do you not have a single memory of a fourth of July celebration that, at some point, culminated in a large fireworks display?
     
  5. lumberjack4

    lumberjack4 Chieftain

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  6. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    A public fireworks show? No. After a baseball game, yea. Baseball game cost money. No price was covered by any cost to the city. After Bellevue Baptist (large church here) did their thing, yea. Event was free, but I had to have someone preach a bit to get there. But nothing was covered by the city, at cost to the resident.

    You seem to be arguing that the city has to put on a display, while simultaneous talking about all the other displays going on. What people do to waste money, what charities do to waste money, and what private business does to waste money is NOT in the same conversation as what the GOVERNMENT does to waste money.
     
  7. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Did I not make it clear in my previous post that law enforcement was absolutely out cracking down on that? They were literally requesting that people call in and report people setting off or storing fireworks within the city.

    Again, no large fireworks show for the city leads to more people setting off their own fireworks within the city, which is significantly less controlled and significantly more dangerous. I would love to see the numbers on firefighters/police/EMS who worked on July 4th this year vs how many would have worked if there was a large firework show. I'm confident the numbers wouldn't differ substantially. Like I said, they were out in full force.

    How many people have access to that art exhibit? How many even know that it exists? How many people, out of those who have access to it and know that it exists, actually want to go see it?

    The fireworks show is highly accessible and easily enjoyable by pretty much everyone. And it's not just that 15 minutes. It's a piece of a larger overall experience, for most people. Again, even without a fireworks show, my fiance and I sat out on our deck for over an hour watching the homegrown fireworks. It's not just about the literally fireworks themselves.
     
  8. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Great. 70,000 * 80 = 5.6 million. Wasted. By the government.
     
  9. IP

    IP Super Moderator

  10. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    Cracking down on fireworks generates revenue for the department, as people are fined. So law enforcement spending time cracking down on illegal fireworks is paying for itself. Standing around supervising a public gathering does not generate revenue. It's an expense only.

    No large fireworks show doesn't impact any people setting off their own or not. That's ridiculous. But let's say that it does. If law enforcement is doing their job, fireworks can be seen and heard, and as such, they can pretty easily trace down who did it, and ticket them. Which means revenue for the city. So now not only has the city spent less, but they are also making more, in fines. Simple math. Every officer spent doing crowd control was an expense that could have been shifted to an income.

    The larger experience can be had and as shown by you, was had, even without the public display.
     
  11. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    It's not a waste if a significant portion of the population views/enjoys it. There is some form of return on investment there.

    Losing your 18 grand deposit is the definition of a waste. It's just gone.

    Look, cancel every government funded 4th of july fireworks show for the rest of eternity, for all I care. I'd honestly prefer that because, like you've said, I don't like the idea of government spending money on that shit. If I have the choice between government spending that money on fireworks or leaving it in residents' pockets, I choose the latter every single day of the week.

    But those aren't my options in this situation. The city budgeted for the show, and the money was taken from residents. And it will be spent on something else that will almost certainly be equally, if not more wasteful. All under the guise of "COVID," which is the real part I take issue with.
     
  12. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    It's not a waste, it's a sunk cost. Better to have a smaller sunk cost than a full waste of the money.

    And this is the biggest issue you should have with your own argument: You don't mind if they are canceled. You might the reason. That's dumb. You should instead celebrate ANY reason: rain, dryness, COVID, bad air quality, long lines at gas pumps. Any reason. Because it results in a benefit.
     
  13. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Lol would love to see the numbers on revenue generated from cracking down on fireworks via fines. Do you honestly believe that law enforcement officers wrote enough fines on the 4th to cover the cost of overtime paid out for having those officers on duty? You say some of the dumbest shit sometimes.

    Did the public gathering sell tickets? Were there corporate sponsors for the gathering? How do you know, for sure, that the expense isn't covered?

    If the city was putting on a large show, we might have hosted a party and invited friends over to watch them with us. Just because we had an experience doesn't mean it was the same experience as would have been had with a public display. And the focal point of the experience we had was the show put on by Domino Sugar as they activated their new sign for the first time. Because large fireworks shows are fun and enjoyable by anyone.
     
  14. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    It's your argument. I don't believe law enforcement cracks down on fireworks. You claimed they did. Now you are claiming they failed at it? Sounds like even more of a reason to not waste screwing around with crowds, they need to get better at giving out fines.

    Because to conclude that the expense isn't covered is to conclude that government isn't wasteful. Would you like to conclude that? Your argument here is that government caught lightening, and wasn't wasteful, here. This time. For this. How likely do you find that argument to be?

    Might is the fantasy word. Didn't is reality. Live in reality. It's better here.
     
  15. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    No, it's not dumb. If every government funded fireworks show in the country was canceled, there is zero doubt in my mind that various corporations would step up to host various shows all over the place. So I don't mind if they are canceled because it saves the taxpayer money and the event likely happens in some form or fashion anyway.

    But if you've already collected the taxpayer's dime and budgeted for the event, then I have a problem with canceling. If the reason for canceling makes sense, then problem solved. If the reason for canceling doesn't make sense, then I continue to have a problem with it.
     
  16. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    The reason doesn't matter. They haven't collected tax payer money for the event. This has been ruled on by SCOTUS. You pay taxes. Period. Where the taxes go has nothing to do with you paying taxes. The money that was for fireworks doesn't now just disappear, it goes to something else. That will always be true.

    So now, regardless of reason, money that would have been wasted is going to something else. That something else may also be a waste, but that isn't a reason to waste in the first place. It just means that where that money now goes needs to be argued to get it to where it isn't a waste. And the reason for why not to waste it at its next stop also doesn't matter. Just don't waste it.
     
  17. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    My neighbors all around set off fireworks. That isn't legal here. But so long as people are being reasonably safe, it would be a waste of time and of little benefit to go around busting them. Better to target situations/instances of people being unsafe, or destructive. It shouldn't be about generating revenue, but public safety and welfare as best can be provided with the resources (officers) made available.
     
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  18. fl0at_

    fl0at_ Humorless, asinine, joyless pr*ck

    If setting off fireworks without a permit is unsafe, then there is no safe way to do it, without a permit. Safe is getting a permit.

    Everyone should be fined for setting off fireworks without a permit, if it is illegal to do so. Because it has been deemed unsafe.
     
  19. IP

    IP Super Moderator

    Okay, but you have approximately 500 violations in a 2 hour period and perhaps 4 patrol cars out. And there are other calls coming in. I'm not making an argument that it is "okay." I am saying it can't be the priority.
     
  20. Indy

    Indy Pronoun Analyst

    Law enforcement being "out in full force" does not automatically equate to individual law enforcement officers "cracking down" or "writing more fines." I'm telling you that a significantly higher number of police officers were out and about, based on my experience walking around various parts of the city during both the day, evening, and night. You brought up cracking down and more fines, based on no evidence whatsoever. And now you're trying to push those evidence-less claims off on me.

    We're comparing the cost and return of law enforcement officers working crowd control vs that of law enforcement officers positioned throughout the city in general. You're paying both, so the cost is the same regardless. You're trying to make the argument that the return for those positioned throughout the city in general is higher because they're writing fines (as if crowd control officers can't write fines). I'm telling you that those positioned throughout the city are not writing a significant number of fines, and therefore, not covering the cost of having them out there. I'm also stating that the crowd control officers COULD be funded by ticket sales or corporate sponsors/donations. Not that they are, but that they could be. I know for a fact that the officers positioned throughout the city are not funded by ticket sales or corporate sponsors/donations. And even if there are no ticket sales, corporate sponsors, or donations, the difference is still minimal because the return from the officers positioned throughout the city is minimal.

    The article YOU posted, talked about ticket sales and donations. There are multiple large fireworks shows that are funded partially or even entirely by corporate sponsors. The Baltimore RFP itself outlined donations and fundraising. So, yeah, reality.
     

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