POLITICS President Trump: 100+ Mornings After (Term 1 Complete)

You plugged in the word "against." You read what I said using the wrong definition of physical, and now you're trying to claim it's my fault because you don't like the word I used. This is a new low for you.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, at all. I opened the physical action pool up to include breathing, and speaking.

 

Yes. Do you want to have an actual conversation, or do you just want to ask ridiculous, unnecessary questions in an feeble attempt to paint the picture that I'm not intelligent enough to engage in a discussion with you?

 

Having officers with social worker training, cordon and de-escalate ends up working like this, a lot:

 

We are on the same page that two cops showing up there and shooting the guy isn't the preferred outcome. We can agree on that and move on to a discussion of how we can better handle the situation. I'm trying to do that. Why are you going back to your hammer analogy?

 

because a mental health professional is a different set of tools. you don't have to leave tools at home. show up with your hammer and your tool belt. No one can guarantee the outcome changes, but we can be certain the course of events changes if a mental health professional also shows up to deal with the situation.

 

It sounds like you and I are pretty well aligned. Show up with a mental health professional. He or she will attempt to handle the situation differently than it was handled. It may lead to a better outcome. It may lead to the same outcome. My only further concern would be if it led to a worse outcome (i.e. the guy stabs someone and then police shoot/kill him).

 

Can you say with certainty that they didn't call for backup? How do you detain the multiple people not following orders if you don't have an officer per person?

I don't think the police can take the position of "if they got stabbed, that's on them. They disobeyed my orders." The people called the police for a reason.

 

That situation sounds incredibly different from the one that took place in the video.

 

Only because the situation wasn't put into the same situation. But that SOP has to be there, and be trained.

You don't move to a situation and wish it was something else, you move to a situation, and make it what you want it to be.

 

It doesn't matter if they did or did not call for backup. I'm sure they did call. They acted before backup arrived. By herding people, Indy. It's trained.

Yes, they can. If you call the police, you are giving them control. If you don't follow their orders, why did you call them? If you didn't call them, and aren't following their orders, you're part of the problem, that they are there to solve, ergo... you can.

 

A mental health professional has the training and tools to better deescalate the situation; as opposed to "PUT DOWN THE KNIFE!!! PUT DOWN THE KNIFE!!!! BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BABG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG!!!"

 

That takes much therapy and drugs. The key is to get to both. In the immediate situation there are options they are better able to exercise...

https://psychotherapy.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.psychotherapy.2010.64.2.195

 

In the Philly situation, the man had the knife when the police were called. In the Lynnwood situation, the man didn't pull out the knife until the police "contacted" the man.

In the Philly situation, the man with the knife was a perceived threat to the people around him, as well as the officers that were there. In the Lynnwood situation, the man sat down on a side walk and only seemed to be a threat to himself.

You can't take one situation where a certain approach worked, apply it to a completely different situation, and assume it will have the same outcome.

 

This is the exact same as the beginning of my conversation with Float. I want to know how the mental health professional de-escalates. I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm wanting to better understand how it is done in a way that prevents bodily harm to anyone else there. In Float's hypothetical, he's already given up that the mother and other guy who choose to remain within 5 feet of the man are responsible for themselves if they get stabbed to death. I'm not a huge fan of that view.

 

so in the Washington situation there just happened to be someone there with proper training for that situation, where as in philly the police were called and two poor beat cops not trained to deal with the situation were dispatched...

Seems to me this only underlines that there is a problem.

 

When the knife showed up is irrelevant. But if we wanted to make it relevant, in Philly, they knew the man was armed, and could have planned better, by arriving with more people at the start. In Lynnwood, they didn't know he was armed until they arrived.

So that would be a negative against Philly, for knowing the situation, and not arriving prepared to deal with it.

In the Lynnwood situation, police were called because the man was being threatening to others. He was reaching into OCCUPIED cars and yelling at people. Occupied means people. So he was absolutely being a "threat."

Yes, you can, by taking the right precautions, by using the right SOPs, you absolutely can arrive at an unknown situation, and expect to turn it into a known situation.

 

Right, you're a fan instead of the person getting shot by police.

I tend to trust that people who believe a person won't harm them, are right. But if they are wrong, and I asked them to leave, that's on them.

 

From my reading of what Float posted, the person with proper training for that situation was not the first person on scene. The situation allowed for the time it took for that person to arrive on scene because the youth was not a threat to the officer on scene or civilians in the area.

From what I see in the Philly video, the situation didn't allow the same time for that person to arrive.

That's not to say that person was on the way in the first place, and I'm not assuming that he was. But IF he was, I don't think it's fair to assume he gets there before the situation escalates the way it did. If the Washington situation had escalated similarly to the Philly situation, who knows if the properly trained person gets there in time either?

I'm of the stance that having that person on the way is important either way.

 

The goal is to have EVERYONE be properly trained, and you do that, by constantly having someone with the training, working with you.