How is it stupid to say the guy has never beaten a team with any talent beyond a couple positions and has never recruited worth a damn? You can't support that he has recruited well and you damn sure cant support that he has beaten teams with ability across the board. Winning in the MAC can e an indicator, but not the way he has. He hasn't been dominant in any way shape or form. Tied titles and shorty bowls from the worst BCS conference in the history of the setup scream mediocre, particularly if one considers that he was handed a dominant conference position in a conference of no teams that can play football. The lone team with any prayer of playing with him fell off the world.
His last season in the MAC he was 11-2, 9-0 in conference play, with a win over a bowl-bound Michigan State, and with nine of his eleven wins coming by double digits. I think that counts as a year of dominance at the MAC level. But assuming you disagree, let's leave that aside. I'm not arguing that his MAC success is the reason he'll succeed. I'm arguing that you can't claim is lack of MAC success as the reason he'll fail, which is what Unimane was trying to claim (unless he was talking about the Big East and misspeaking). Because he didn't lack MAC success by any sane standard of success. I don't think your position is unreasonable at all, BPV. But you're either misreading my argument or denying the antecedent.
im not misreading your argument nor am I arguing he'll fail. I'm arguing that the hire is a fireable offense and that recruiting is doomed. Defense will continue to suck and that's a problem. I don't think you can make a lucid argument that we should have hired the guy based upon our needs and his history. I hope he succeeds and we still fire the two idiots that perpetrated this trash on us.
If you're not misreading the argument, I'm not sure why you keep disagreeing, since I've consistently said it was a bad hire and there's no basis for believing he's a good recruiter. I also hope he succeeds and we still fire the two idiots who perpetrated this trash on us.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing. I don't think his resume merits my having any hope, particularly having watched his team play several times. I dont believe his 4 championships mean anything for several reasons. That's why I'm disagreeing. Additionally, the shoddy recruiting can't be separated from the coaching for me.
Let's all just agree that Butch Jones likely sucks and that we want Dave Hart and his family dead and his house burned to the ground.
Gotcha. I'm a little more optimistic, but not enough so that I can't name ten guys I'd have rather hired. I really did love watching his CMU teams, but they were already a MAC power when he took over, so I'm not sure how much of that is him. I also don't think he's a terrible recruiter. I am completely agnostic about his recruiting. Which is a reason we shouldn't have hired him. You need a proven recruiter when your roster looks like ours. I expect that unless he's a total disaster on the recruiting trail, he'll be a 7-5/8-4 coach most years and we'll fire him after four seasons.
I hope Butch doesn't suck. I believe there is more reason to believe he can't win here than him winning, but I can see the other side, from a purely coaching standpoint. Hart and Cheek still have to go for this sewage bath.
I'll say what I need and want to say, which, in this case, shouldn't have been too hard to understand. Who gives a flying **** about the MAC? Why would I care that he had a couple of good years there? Winning in the MAC isn't the least bit relevant to what he will do at Tennessee, Cincy is. Clearly, for what he was doing at Cincy, he had reached his ceiling.
I actually hope he sucks. My greatest fear, and expectation, is that he meanders in the late era Fulmer state of mediocre to decent seasons, which keeps him around for a number of 7, 8 and 9 win seasons. If he simply sucks, then it's easier to rid ourselves of this mistake. I have no sense of him becoming a championship coach here, at all.
The reason that was hard to understand is because it doesn't remotely resemble what you said. But if that's what you meant to say, then the argument we should've been having is a very different one than the one we were having. I could think the MAC has done a pretty good job of developing coaches, but this might be anecdotal. There are a few who have crashed and burned upon making the jump (Turner Gill comes to mind) but lots of others who have had great success (Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Brian Kelly, Brady Hoke). I'd like to see a list of MAC coaches who subsequently got BCS-conference jobs to see how they did. But without such a list, I can't really point to anything solid to disagree.
What about the buyout? Averaging 8 wins a season for the next 5 years may be a best case scenario at this point.
It's hard for me to imagine that game ending up as anything other than a Tennessee blowout win. Regardless of who was coaching those teams, Cincinnati really had no shot at stopping our wide receivers.
