The Great Bathroom Debate

In my view, they are fine being divided by gender and letting people self-select whether they belong in one or the other. They could work as unisex as well, if designed with that in mind.

"But IP, what if Joe "Too Cool 4" Highschool goes in the girls' locker room, claiming to identify as female?" The thing about gender is that it is a cultural/social construct. There never was a real barrier preventing this before. In the same way, peers and school leaders will be able to deal with Too Cool. Further, some sense of privacy within a locker room is becoming extremely common directly because of this issue of more awareness that not everyone fits into the two major categories.

What's your suggestion? Genital inspections?

 

I shower at a gym pretty regularly right now. I couldn't tell you for sure that everyone in the shower is male. Why would I care? I'm there to shower, and so are they. As long as that remains true there is nothing to worry about.

 

And I think it is ridiculous to let a boy in the girls' locker room because he thinks he's a girl. In the most favorable reading of that situation, you are overruling the wishes of every girl who doesn't want him in there in favor of the singular wish of the guy who wants to go. There are more unfavorable lights that I think are uglier.

I stated before that if i were king, I would probably follow the penis rule. Those with go right, those without go left. It is enforced when someone reports that there is a [penis] in the girl's shower. Similar rules have worked since the invention of public toilets without the necessity of mass genital inspections, so I'm not sure why you think that is an issue; it sounds much more like a hysterical non sequitur designed to confuse and inflame.

 

Then what, under this logic, is the problem with Pat using the boys' room?

 

Hysterical non sequitur, like child molesters and men posing as women to go into the women's room? Like that? In what universe is a law enforcing bathroom protocol not hysterical, but one protecting against discrimination is?

 

I don't have a problem with whatever Pat decides. And most people wouldn't I'd wager, because no one is looking or cares and Pat isn't bothering anyone. You're the one who sees this as a "either this or that," not me. I'm saying I don't really care, people will figure it out if we leave each other alone.

 

What is a "law enforcing bathroom protocol?"

This entire discussion, btw, is about "men posing as women to go into the women's room."

I think Pat can decide whatever ze wants. I think Pat also can be told to use the facilities that correspond with zer (zis?) naughty bits.

 

Back when I went to school we were so self conscious about our bodies that we never showered or undressed past our underwear. All I ever saw were boxers or briefs.

Have times changed so much that teens are walking around their locker rooms nude?

 

Then you get Jamie Lee Curtis. That's True Lies, a completely different movie.

 

I changed and showered in locker rooms quite a bit, but that isn't really the point.

If you guys are of the opinion that John can decide he is a girl and start using the girls' locker room, and the girls have no choice but to tolerate that, then we are at an impasse. I think the concept is patently absurd.

 

I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

It was the same in high school for me. But did you go to school in the South? I know that as an adult, it is common for men to be walking to and from the shower naked, and to use the open form locker room showers. As an adult, I don't give a shit anymore and do it. As a teenager, I wouldn't have dared.

 

Has John grown his hair long, wears make-up and dresses, acts effeminate, uses a feminine name, by all appearance is female; or is John the all American boy who wants to sneak a peek by claiming a sudden conversion?

 

It doesn't matter. He identifies as Jane.

FTR, I find it equally absurd that a girl could "identify" as male, use the boys locker, and the boys have no option but accept it.

 

Yes I am from the south. In school nobody ever undressed past their undies. Now I go nude in the locker room all the time. I don't care what make or female wants to look at this wrinkly old ass.

I asked because if they are still in bras and panties in the locker rooms I can't imagine John going through the transformation (i.e., long hair, make-up, dress, changing name, etc) to see some bras and panties when all he has to do is request sexting pictures and get nudes.

 

It seems men over the age of 60, regardless of region, will stay naked in a locker room for up to an hour just because

 

From what I gather, folks at more northern and urban schools do the group shower stuff without a thought. I think it's our still strong protestant culture/body guilt stuff in the South that makes it weird for us when young.

 

So you have a problem with her using a boys locker room?

 

To be fair, he mentioned as a worry a case of someone with a penis using the girls'. But I think women and girls are often pretty understanding and supportive, and as a group they can tell the difference between a pervert and someone who is just different. Someone who identifies feminine isn't going to be swinging their [penis] around either.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting locker room patrols. Currently, we self-select, but if a man (who, you know, looks like a man) is in a girl's bathroom, then there is social pressure for them to leave (from peers, and possibly leaders). I don't think it's illegal on a local or state level, but they could easily face some sort of punishment from the school. Which is fine by me.

The concern is that, if it is legally mandated that people can go in whatever bathroom fits their identity, that degree of pressure (particularly in the form of punishment from the school, in the school context) would be either prohibited or rendered ineffectual.

(And I honestly think it's hard for guys to give two shits about it from our perspective, at least for those of us who don't have daughters. But listen to a woman talk about harassment, assault, always having to be on guard around men, etc., and it's easy to see why the ability to use that pressure to keep men out of the ladies room would be important from their perspective)