The Great Bathroom Debate

it seems like the prevailing opinion among transpeople is that they knew something was "wrong" as early as 3 or 4, they just weren't able to piece it together until they were older

I do think its entirely fair to question the validity of some of the stories of young children though, especially when they have overbearing and enthusiastic parents who are more than happy to shop them around to tabloids

 

exactly. i'm sure they know they are different. but guaranteeing they are different is another thing. let them figure it out on their own time. if that was my kid i'd at least explain to them that it's a rough road ahead to make that decision and they better take some time to make sure that's what they want.

 

This assumes that gender identification is a choice.

 

I don't think sexual orientation is a choice, but the studies suggest that a high percentage of transgender people were sexually assaulted and have mental health issues. now that's a chicken and egg argument obviously since people say they were assaulted and have these issues because they are transgender, but we are still talking about mutilating yourself. I have mixed feelings about it. should be interesting to see if these incidents of assault and such drop as society becomes more accepting of transgender people.

 

I saw a story the other day of a Harvard swimmer recruited as a girl who is now taking testosterone, has had breast removal surgery, and swims with the men. He said that most of his life he thought he was a lesbian because he was physically a girl who liked girls.

It has got to be confusing.

 

It's not a choice. It's an assignment based on your genetic makeup at birth.

Wanting to change what your assignment happens to be is a choice, though. You can't change your genetic makeup. This is bordering on the whole "ze" situation.

 

And if they have both, or something in between?

 

Incorrect. Sex is not gender, and Sex is not always binary. Gender is a social construct that is not constant throughout history or the world, and is by definition a "range" between masculine and feminine. These aren't opinions, they are facts.

 

what percentage of transgender folks fit that category?

 

You have two types in this scenario in the human species. Identified by parts and reproductive roles. Male and female. That doesn't change. You can identify all you would like as the opposite, but it doesn't make it true. Gender is a construct based on sex, at present.

 

Expound, please. If a person is born XY, they are a boy, no if's, and's or but's?

Also, you can change your genetics. Not your DNA so much, but your epigenetics. As I understand it, but I am not a biologist.

And the brain is a funny, funny thing. So many things can happen early in a pregnancy that can alter it that it is hard to say what is what at times.

 

frankly, if I was transgendered in a place with this kind of law, I'd go to the restroom I presented as over the biologically "correct" room regardless. I have seen the kind of violence that transpeople(transwomen especially) can get thrown at them, and I wouldn't take any damn risks by going into a mens room, laws be damned. Give me a fine over a (potentially fatal) beating any day of the week.

 

It's weird. I don't know if a 5 year old has it figured out, but I know I'm not letting a 5 year old boy wear a dress. It's not saying "you can't be gay" it's just setting ground rules that you can't do whatever the hell you want because you feel like it. I'm not letting my sons go out in pajamas, it's the same thing to me.

 

The only time I would employ this type of violent behavior is if I see Botch in a secluded area after another loss to Florida

 

What do you mean you don't understand the sentence? Is it due to cognitive dissonance? The law simply protects against discrimination and the meddling of where one makes tinkle. There is nothing about that law that infringes on anything but bigotry. A law that dictates where a particular group must go to the bathroom is not a just law, it is a discriminatory one. Keep in mind that this law specifically defines someone by their birth certificate, so this really isn't about XX/XY, penis and vagina, or child molesters. The law is specifically about punishing a small minority of people who fall outside of society's norms.

What I believe is not as important as what we know. The concept of gender is a cultural one and varies through human societies. It is by definition a range of characteristics between masculine and feminine, and where the boundaries of acceptable masculine traits/feminine traits begins and ends is entirely subjective. 40 years ago, a man cooking dinner for his wife was somewhere between novel and taboo in America. Nowadays, no one would think a thing of it. Is it suddenly manly to cook? Or has our perception of traits changed? In the same way, some people gravitate and identify with traits that are considered feminine, despite being born with male genitals. I don't see how it is any of your or anyone else's [dadgum] business if someone with a [penis] thinks themselves a lady, squats to pee, and lives as a woman. They certainly aren't doing it for positive attention because that isn't what they're getting. Often people associate transgenders as being mentally ill, but there is research that suggests that they may often suffer from depression and anxiety BECAUSE of the sort of difficulties they face from mainstream society, not that mental illness caused them to be transgender. In some cultures including ones that persisted on this continent for thousands of years, transgender people were identified as third genders and treated with no more fascination or dread as an unusually tall person. It was just a known thing.

 

[video=youtube;z1Kdoja3hlk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Kdoja3hlk[/video]

So you can see why things can get a bit confused. Sure, 95% of the time, things work out the way they should, but there is a small percentage of the populace where stuff gets wonked out in the womb and it is just what it is.

Also, is it illegal for me to go into the women's room here at work, right now? Will I get arrested? Is it trespassing? I don't know, as I was told to never go in, but I have seen my wife use the men's room when the line was reaaaaaaaally long in the women's room. not to mention that picture of the UGA woman pissing in the trough at Neyland.

Just a bunch of saber rattling over something that just seems so unimportant. I often wonder if it is mostly because it is uncomfortable for us, that it is outside our routine and expectations.

 

That's where I am trying to take this. Even if one's genitals are consistent with a male, what if their brain functions are not? I think these people are sincere. I don't think this is some indulgence or illness, any more than my heterosexual man identity is. Sometimes people are different than the norm. We would be wise to be especially vigilant in protecting them, because they're the canaries in the coal mine when it comes to liberty and freedom.

 

Many times with multiple women I have dated, I have come out of an empty men's room while they are still in line and told them to go ahead, I'd wait outside and screen for them if they were relatively quick. This usually prompted a couple of other women in line to say "hell, how many stalls are there?" This would now be a crime in NC, even though it is a completely practical and reasonable thing that no one has ever objected to, including men who came up while the woman/women were in there and I asked if they could give them a minute. The need was obvious, as there was nobody in line for the men's but a line around the corner for the women.

I don't think I invented this, it happens in bars and event venues all the time. Especially works with single capacity men's rooms.

 

there's a much higher incidence of sexual assault and mental illness for transgender people than homosexuals. I don't know if that's because of society or because there is a mental health element to this, but i'm also not ready to declare that it's similar to homosexuality. on the other hand, I tend to agree with you that they should be protected, but we need to avoid situations where the pervert who dresses like a man, has a penis, and says he identifies as a women solely to have access to women's bathrooms is not allowed free reign and i'm absolutely convinced it will happen. of course it's going to be pretty rare. and what have people who look and dress like other sexes been doing all this time? they've been using the other sexes bathroom and no one has been the wiser. I don't see a huge problem here.